Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Derid
The Democrats have often assaulted common sense, decency, and good governance but at least they are not actively working at destorying the foundations of the republic itself. Yet. We might see some from their side if they go and try SCOTUS packing or something, but for now cooler heads seem to be prevailing.

The foundation of the republic is its values, some of which are codified through the law. If you destroy the values, the law alone will not hold.

The radical wing of Democrats are assulting meritocracy, the very notion that people of merit achiving goals that are objectively valuable to a broader society should raise to the top, and in that they are damaging the foundational value of Western Civilization. This damage is further spreads into attacking free exchange of ideas. The regressive left after capitulating on convincing others with arguments went all-in on censorship and that censorship spilled into all areas of life, and not just politics.. Last but not least, the obsession with group dynamics leads to abandonment of individualism, when taken to the logical conclusion would lead to a caste system. I don't believe it is possible to build a free society on such framework of rotten values, as such with near-certanty of the end result the only question is how fast we get there.

All of that is by far more dangerous than Trump's inept attempts to undermine democratic processes. We can clearly see that the system is holding against Trumpism, can you see that the system is NOT holding against Left's follies?

I disagree that the system is holding against Trumpism, I believe it is still being eroded.

I'm not about to argue in favor of the far left. or mount a defense of their behavior as I find much of it to be problematic - and in some regards, a major cause of setting the stage for current predicament. They are, after all, the folks most responsible for busting the myths in the first place - sometimes with good reason, and other times not so much - and their assaults on political process have been large and also largely responsible for large swaths of people on the center-right and right becoming disenchanted with the idea that people outside of their own social bubble are willing to consider their own interests.

It's just that on the other hand, I believe that there are currently more powerful cultural forces at work that wish to see Trump and other far-right populists in power no matter the cost.

The tipping point for me is how not just T's inner circle, but a large group of sitting officeholders and right wing media are willing to throw the ordinary folks of their own party who hold low and mid level civic positions - such as vote counting, and certifying - under the bus. As if the local long-time GOP foot soldiers across the USA who hold mostly middle and upper-middle class livelihoods are going to somehow join a huge conspiracy to commit fraud in order to elect left-wingers to power. That is something well beyond mere doubt and distrust, it enters the realm of outright insanity. And those pols pushing it are not insane, just completely shameless and completely unprincipled. History has shown that absurtity of this level is exceedingly dangerous.

It's not that I don't largely agree with your thoughts about the far-left, its just that at this juncture the far-right seems more threatening to the system itself, and maining the system and confidence in at least some basic institutions will be required to restore sanity in the event that the current fevers pass and society starts wanting to steer itself back towards sanity.

Trump is no saviour or even lesser of two evils, he has already shown that the only thing he cares about is his own ego and will not even acknowledge any reality that damages it. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, and I think that is the case here. Nor do I think further entrenching a cadre of proven lackeys and sycophants into the DC power structure to be a particularly good idea. Bringing in Trump's cohort is like bringing in the bear to fight the tiger, even if it works you still get eaten in the end either way.

That being said, I don't have a good answer to the situation. No progress is possible when no party or cultural shpere has a cogent set of principles, and people are unable to judge ideas on merits as opposed to origins. We need a cultural shift, and I have no idea where one might come from. Anger, hater, outrage, discord, these thing get people engaged especially on social media and the tech giants are more than happy to stoke the fires for fun and profit. Not that censorship would work either, all censorship does is hand arbitrary power over public discussion to an arbitrary body.

It's a pile of shit, I just dont think that things will improve by making that shitpile bigger and stinkier.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)