Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini

I wholly reject that I have not already laid out this argument in this thread, which is why I've been continually ignoring you saying that I have, but for sake of reference I will do so one more time.

The statues were put up by essentially Klansmen, in direct response to the events in the United States years AFTER the civil war and leading up to and after the Civil Rights Movement, and in whole or in part to signal that the communities they reside in stand for the ideology of white supremacy and white nationalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

Nazis today wish to maintain the status quo, to further their own cause of white nationalism.

Besides blatant racism, spurious dog-whistle arguments about the historical value of these statues are being uses by Nazis and others to maintain the status quo.

Aside from being disingenuous, these arguments are demonstrably false because history books and museums will continue to exist among other incredibly obvious reasons. At bare minimum, in my opinion, these statues should be interpreted and contextualized and not allowed to continue their romanticization of the culture of slavery unchecked.

By supporting these arguments and rejecting their clear purpose, you are therefore de facto, in action if not in spirit, supporting the cause of white nationalism.

You also continually suggest that I have not given justification as to the necessity for the statues to be removed. Aside from the fact that it opposes nazis, I think it's clear that having symbols of racism and oppression prominently featured on government lands and in public spaces serves as an unnecessary reminder to African Americans of the lengths to which our culture and society still need to go to truly accept them. Additionally they serve as false signals to white people that racism is normal, which when combined with all other sources of normalization, contributes to the perpetuation of racism and systemic oppression.

No, removing the statues will not solve all of the worlds problems. Yes, there are other problems to concern yourselves with, in addition to this one. This is just one step along a generational journey of tolerance. A step you are opposing to no fruitful benefit.

There are a few problems with your reasoning though, as well as your base assumptions.

The first and most important is your assertion that Nazis place a lot of import on the statues themselves. This is fundamentally incorrect. What Nazis and white nationalists actually seek is attention. What they fear is marginalization and being ignored.

When people and go make a big deal about 20 of them gathering, and when a bunch of violent counter-protestors appear at their rallies, and the home pages of digital newspapers are filled with copious stories about them - they aren't saying to themselves "Aw, shucks. It looks like people don't like us, this isn't good." No, what they are saying is "OMG THIS IS AWESOME, WE LOOK SO HUGE AND POWERFUL AND EVERYONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO US!"

The status quo for the past several decades had actually been a decline in racism to the point where Southern localities will even attempt to remove statues on their own, which is not in the interest of the white nationalists at all. What they seek is conflict and attention, and by giving it to them you are feeding the troll, not defeating it. Stepping into the debate as the leftist, commie, coastal "other" just puts the locals who do want to remove the statues in a bad spot. Appearing to cave to ANTIFA pressure on anything is a recipe for political suicide.

White nationalists are basically sock puppets, dressed up in ridiculous fashion and holding little get-togethers with the few other sock puppet aficionados, and hoping other people come to watch the show. By shining a huge spotlight of attention on them, the sock puppets cast monstrous shadow puppets on the wall - appearing large and frightening - while giving them that which they most desire.

The danger here is that people see how easy it is to troll the world, and decide to join the trolls.

The moral of the story here is that you shouldn't base any of your actions on what you think Nazis want, especially if you don't know what they actually want. You might wake up one day to realize that you'd been playing into their hands all along. This is also an example of why ends don't justify means.

What you should be doing, is confronting the ANTIFA types and sympathizers in your own circle, because criticism from outside isn't going to matter - but rather feed them in the same manner attention feeds the Nazi-wannabes.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)