Originally Posted By: sinij
No Derid, I disagree that we have to extensively model entire system to reach conclusions about it. We don't have a model of universe, yet astronomy can tell us a lot about how it works. The same principle applies here - you don't have to model minute details to observe obvious trends.



Interesting analogy... sure you can learn some things, or at least make educated conjectures about the universe from astronomy. But we didnt learn enough to make much valuable use from astronomy alone. Do you have any idea how many rocket tests failed, when we were developing rocket technology for example? A LOT.

I mean, data gleaned from astronomy let us conjecture about things like force required to exit earths gravity well, and how objects in space move and could affect each other via gravity.

And hey, a small rocket flies straight up right? So why are all these large rockets crashing? Oh, a gyroscope? Why would we need one of those.....

In the case of rockets, a lot of accidents and trail and error were required to get things right. A lot of disciplines other than astronomy were required to make systematic use of new technologies based on, and/or involving astronomy.

Economically speaking, its kind of similar to what we are currently going through with the Fed and central fiscal planning.

Repeating these follies with our health system out of pure faith and ideological fervor is not something I care to see.

So your astronomy example was a good one.

Originally Posted By: sinij
I understand your position that ONE on ONE comparison, say Luxemburg to US, there is a possibility that some factors could have disproportional effect. This is not the case here, it is US compared to ALL socialized healthcare countries. EACH AND EVERY SINGLE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE COUNTRY DOES IT CHEAPER! US population are still homo sapiens, you can't come up with "different enough scale, environment, circumstances" large enough to explain all of it away. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck it must be a duck.


Most socialist systems in the world fail miserably and provide nothing close to the value our horribly broken one does, in many and some cases most types of incidences. The amount of social or mostly social health systems that are even in the same ballpark is small. If you come down with a serious illness, and need advanced treatment and/or complicated surgery.... most people wouldnt volunteer to have it done in Greece or Venezuela. If they had any other option.

Sweden might be able to perform it, but you also might be waiting a few months longer than you would want.

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Anyhow, the gist of what you seem to be saying is that even though we dont understand how the health economic system works globally, or even locally in socialist systems... we should make large scale changes based on faith.

Since we cant model it, and therefore have no management criteria in the absence of an open market valuation system (and this gets even more complex, because our broken mixed pub/private system already distorts pricing very badly)... how on earth do you begin to implement even the day to day management of such a system in a rational way?

I dont like tinkering with important things out of faith and ideology.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)