I said:

Originally Posted By: sinij

2. It is both practical and cost effective to enable all-inclusive access to health care. People priced out of the system still end up using it to some degree (emergency rooms and so on) but in ineffective manner, and this increases overall cost to society.


You said:

Originally Posted By: Derid


2. Your second point is a simple false assertion. You will likely try to justify it with an observation that preventative medicine is cheaper than emergency room care after a would-be minor problem has become a major one. This in of itself is true, and proves that the current status quo is inefficient. What it does not prove however, is that your model of universal care is any better - because systems need to be evaluated independently and in the entirety of their effects, so until you can accurately model a universal system wholly - you cannot make an assumption that such a system would actually address this or any other issue sufficiently.


"Your second point is a simple false assertion". Not according to government data and studies, some that I even linked in this post.

"You will likely try to justify it with an observation that preventative medicine is cheaper than emergency room care after a would-be minor problem has become a major one." It is not justification, it THE REASON. It costs more to go to emergency room. End of story.

"What it does not prove however, is that your model of universal care is any better." What does universal health care has to do with emergency room costs? Why bring it up here?

"so until you can accurately model a universal system wholly - you cannot make an assumption that such a system would actually address this or any other issue sufficiently." I cannot accurately model our universe ether, but I can make accurate observations about its properties. You insist changing subject of this discussion from "emergency room medicine cost a lot, maybe we should get more people into doctors since we have to pay for the whole mess anyways" into "universal health care is bad". These are not the same arguments, and they have very little to do with each other, other than you are wrong on both accounts - universal health care is demonstrably more effective than what we have now.

Just to remind you:

Originally Posted By: sinij


Life expectancy

Australia 81.6 yr
Canada 81.2 yr
Sweden 80.9 yr
Netherlands 79.4 yr
...
US 78.1 yr

Healthcare Costs:

Sweden (social, 9% GDP)
Canada ( social, 9% GDP )
Netherlands (state mandated purchase of private health insurance, 8% GDP)
Australia ( social, 6% GDP)
USA (private, 15%+ GDP)

Swedish healthcare costs or $3319 per person
Canadian healthcare costs or $3899 per person
US healthcare costs or $7291 per person

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