The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Holrom's Video Message to Former KGB Shadowbane

Believe it or not, we are splitting hairs down to the point where we start to agree. I still believe your ideas on and accusations of socialism are unfounded in some cases, but we are getting to common ground.
I keep pointing out programs that could be considered "socialist" that work, and are semi common across the world. The "old" programs. Like with many things, Obamacare, the TARP/Stimulus, Automotive bailout, did not or will not solve all our problems, and most importantly failed to address the core of the problems that you are speaking of. This to me is a failure. The nutless tactics of my party make me sick, and I am disappointed in my party that these problems were not solved when they had the chance to. With the recent supreme court decision on corporate funding of political campaigns, I think we are fucked anyways you look at it. The corruption is rampant and will be difficult to address or stop.
Let me address your responses.

[quote=Derid] Uh, no. So you are saying Obamacare had no effect on total percent of GDP healthcare eats up? We are definately reading different reports then.

GDP Healthcare percentage was going up either way. This is not contested! The CBO report has real numbers as to savings. I want to see some real numbers on it's unpublished estimated cost that you continue to use.

Quantify this. Also, this is extremely disingenious - when people refer to the New Deal, most people think in terms of the Social(ist) safety nets and such. Were a few reasonable infrastructure projects included? Quite possibly so. However you were appearing to make the claim that this ended the Great Depression. Recent stimulus in current era also created jobs..... at an estimated cost of 400k per job created.

People are largely divided about "The New Deal" I think we can bot agree. For me it was the starting point of our recovery, and WW2 was the end point. I never meant to imply that it ended the great depression, but that many of the programs it created were in place until WW2 and in my opinion benefited our country and the economy.
I have to spend lots of time in Vegas for work. Vegas and surrounding cities and towns depend on the Hoover Dam for their power and water. This was a result of "The New Deal". Again, I am not claiming that it solved everything, but it certainly made the creation of the largest concentration of gambling and hooking in the United States.

Are you seriously trying to draw a similarity between Obamacare, the New Deal, and WW2? Yes, War is indeed a govt program - however it is not easy to forget that, rather, I would say it is impossible. So whats your argument here?

The point I am making is this. The Government can do large projects well to a point. The claim that it cant, or that anytime it does we are going to start marching the goose step is simply ridiculous. It is this extreme view that I continue to use the examples of Social Security and Medicare to debunk. That is the point I am trying to make. It is never perfect though. Even though we won WW2, we also create the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about. These solutions remind me of new drugs advertised on TV. It may fix your ailment, but you might grow a third arm, or keel over as a side effect.

How is leaving more money in the economy, a plan to destroy it? Just FYI the theory that a planned economy was more efficient or effective than a free market was utterly destroyed in the 20th century.

And also, you apparently did not read the same things I did.

Tax cuts do nothing to stimulate the economy compared to continuing unemployment benefits. To stimulate the economy you need people to SPEND money. What money is more likely to be spent? Savings on your taxes, or a struggling family relying 100% on unemployment. I promise you that ALL of the unemployment money will be spent. It just makes sense and helps millions of people in need.

I did, you refuse to acknowledge the existince of anything that does not agree with your preconception.

Got tired of your non sequitur copy/paste responses.

I will only play along with a Socratic defense for so long.


I disagree here. I continue to combat the extremist views, and force you and others to produce numbers and documentation like anyone should in a good debate.

Economic collapse according to Bernake - the Goldman Sachs guy. Even if he was being above board, the fact that high powered Wall Street types are genuinely convinced that the world revolves around them and their clique of banking elite is also a truth. Just because they perceive a total meltdown due to their demise, does not mean the world would have ended for the rest of us.

I dont like the people involved, and it makes me sick that they got to decide who made it and who didnt, and strong armed banks like BofA to purchase Merril Lynch, but something had to be done or we would certainly be in the great depression. A majority of economic experts agree with me.

Just like your Obamacare Frontline link, that was not a "study" so much as it was a reconstruction of the series of events from the perspective of those involved. Neither Frontlone episode serves as, or appears to be intended to fill the role of policy analyst. Yes, BErnake told Congressional leadership that the world would end if they didnt do something. This is his view, not an objective fact. The downsides to bailouts was the fact that they perpetuate the illusion that govt is morally entitled to intervene in private enterprise because of the opinion of a small group of policy analysts. This intervention was politically driven, and the govt was deciding "who lived, and who died" so to speak. This sets a bad predicament of predicating success in business upon political approval as opposed to market performance.

I addressed some of this above. I don't like how it got completed, but the end result will in my opinion, and that of the CBO (in my view) be positive. You have to look at all aspects of the problems to see this, and Obamacare addresses some of the problems, and not how I would have liked, but in an overall positive manner. If you take the questions that Michael Moore raised in Sicko, these need to be addressed weather you agree with him or not. The problems are still valid.

No crow need be et, as above the issue is precident. Well, not the sole issue.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that both unions and govt over-regulation are both largely responsible for US automaker difficulties in the first place. Having the govt create huge problems for business, then help prop up those businesses without acknowledging the overall policy failures is not a good thing.

I 100% agree with you here. The greedy unions almost ended the American auto industry but refusing to remain competitive in the global market place. Airlines, and many other businesses had and continue to have the same problems. Everyone wants the government to cut back, everyone wants to compete, but noone wants to pay for it.

In the current national climate, we are forced to compromise to enact change. Like I was saying before, we all have to give up something to get out of this. I am not even confident that we are smart enough, and not just plain to greedy to be able to solve our problems. We are currently on the road to ruin with a 14 trillion dollar budget deficit that is continuing to grow.

I think you could start with a total revamp of the tax system. There are slot of viable ideas out there that could help the overall system greatly. I hope we are intelligent enough to do what is needed.