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Eh, so its up to you then to raise the self-esteem of the troops or something? Gimme a break man. Some might want to stay over there for whatever reason, but thats not all of them by a long shot. Noone said they werent or shouldnt be proud of their service and work, but letting pride keep you in a place where your buddies are getting blown up solely for prides sake is foolhardy.

Your post and overall tone is a very emotional one, which though understandable strikes at the heart of why we cant as a nation elect good leadership. We need to think more logically about things.



What I'm saying has nothing to do with troop moral or self esteem. I'm pointing ouit the basic fact that once the government decided to send our troops into a war, (even if it was all based on lies or not) we should stand behind them till they compleat the job and not suddenly decide midway that "ooops it was a bad idea" and try to pull out halfway. As for some wanting to stay over there, I really doubt any want to be there, but all the troops I've talked to seem to be saying they want to get their job (objective) done and get out of the hell they're in. Get it done then leave. It doesn't have anything to do with pride, it is part of 'Living the Army Values' to them. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage. These values are what they are as much as their training as firing a gun. These and namely, 'DUTY', especialy to 'fullfill their obligations' and going 'one assignment onto another' is why they stay to finish the job. Pulling them out before they succeed, violates their training and disgraces/dishonors them. It might not have been right that they were sent there, but since they were, let them do their job.

You are absolutly right in that last part, we need to logicaly elect good leadership.

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First off, the UN. Do you REALLY want to see the UN as a sovereign body? Seriously. Do you really want the Euros and Russians and Chinese telling you what to do? World Govt is a bad bad idea.

The reality is there are no superheros, there are no world police, the people who should have done something about Saddam was the Iraqis themselves.



I'm not really where you get the idea I'd like to see the UN as a governing body... I'm against world government as much as I'm against people like Hillary and Thompson trying to take away my videogames. My point about the UN is that it is supposed to ensure things like 'basic human rights'. Honestly, I feel being a part of the UN and NATO do more damage to our country then the supposed good it is supposed to bring. While the Iraqi peoples should have been the ones to do something, they didn't or couldn't, and THAT is where the UN should have done something other then waving their finger.

As for the link, this is what I was talking about, we're looking at what the media has to say about our involvement in the war. Not supprisingly, it's showing us just how much of a 'negative impact' we're having on these people. First I'd like to point out that it's based on a survey or Iraqi civilians, any of whom could be the terrorist/extreamists that blend right into their population and love to use our own media for their propiganda. Secondly, the majority of responsibility of these deaths falls in the 'unknown' area and later on show that insurgent forces are causing more civilian deaths then colation forces. Thirdly, doing the math, these piecharts are innaccurate in their displays. Which is prolly the result that 'statistics and charts' can be made to show what the person collecting the information wants it to show, and the media/news sells so well when it's based on fear, death and distruction. It doesn't suprise me at all that these statistics are showing such mass amounts of death.

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Your emotional appear to create the US and UN as worldwide liberators from all "tyrrany" is an interesting one, but one western nation no matter how rich cannot successly nation-build one arab country, no matter how hard it tries. They are Arabs, not Europeans. They have different cultures and traditions and ways of thinking and more. Frankly given the results and expenditure , of this and other previous foreign intervention adventures, I would think that people would realize that we should be looking after ourselves, not the rest of the world.

Our own traditions of having a free republic are under enough threat here at home for one thing. We cannot (or will not, as a practical matter) force the cultures of others to change through violence, and most cultures arent capable of sustaining a western style democratic nation anyhow.



The statements that where made about the UN and US liberating other from tyrany is more a reason as to why we should support our troops in finishing their job over there. I'd rather see us not involved with the UN and tend to our own personal problems here at home. I agree fully with you on the fact we should look after ourselves and not the rest of the world. I'm not sure why you think that the Iraqi people are being 'forced' into change through violence... They seemed to have made a relatively peacefull change from dictatorship to democracy by their own choice. They took their former dictator to trial and found him guilty and had him executed, all on their own. Whether or not they are capable of sustaining it is another matter... The main cause of chaos currently is between religious factions who are fueling hate towards the US because we haven't left yet because the Iraqi new government cannot sustain itself yet. If their new government falls these factions will most likely try and move in to grab power along with boardering countries.

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But anyhow, if you want to "free" the whole world by force of arms, feel free. Go pick up a rifle and join whatever revolutionaries are fighting against the tyran of that particular country, and I will in all honesty and enthusiasm wish you well. Just dont try and say its the national duty of all of us, and claim rightousness supports taking the tax dollars and family members of the rest of us forcibly away to achieve that objective.



I have do desire to 'free' anything. Frankly the rest of the world can kill off their own peoples or blow each other to hell for all I care. I'd rather see the world population brought down some anyways because I'm getting sick of these bleeding heart commercials about hungry orphans in Africa. I think more along the lines 'who the hell cares? we've enough starving kids on the streets in America that no one seems to give a damn about.'

I claim neither 'national duty' nor 'rightousness' as my only real objectives are to sit here and play video games untill I'm no longer able to. Tax dollars should be spent on bettering our country, and family members should only be taken away if they're defending our country as an objective...

The fact remains that our troops are over there, and should be fully funded with as many tax dollars as needed to get them home sooner and safer then later and unsafe.

Do I like taxes? NO, but I want my friends and family back ASAP just as much as everyone else who has friends and family there. We're not going to get them back quickly if we keep trying to nickle and dime every thing in this war.

Jacon Clay 3xGM mage voted as "The Worst Red Ever" "I'm okay at PvP... But what I lack in skill, I make up for in Luck" "I love Wisps!" ~ the day 4 wisps killed 3 SL blues chasing my red. The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?