Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
Interesting graph. Civil war ended in 1865, but the peak statue construction appears to be 40 years later. I know nothing about the United Daughters of the Confederacy, other than about anyone from South in that era would be considered full blown racist by modern standards. The biggest spike appears to be from 1900 to 1915. What factors would you attribute it to?

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Bad stuff happened last century and every century before that. The graph zeroed out around 1940s, so almost nobody alive today experienced this. What does this has to do with tearing down statues in 2017?

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
Building of statues around civil right movement could be considered suspicious, I'd support removal of any confederate statue put up in that era. Say 1960 and newer should go. But statues erected more than 100 years ago? To me, that is history.

Quit moving the fucking goal post.

The goal posts are still at "statues have nothing to do with racism in 2017". You made a point that some of them were built around civil rights movement. I decided to grant you a point, as clear majority of these statues more than 100 years old and have nothing to do with civil rights movement.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
You also make another logical jump in stating "this contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes". You reductive view of the civil war leads you to conclude it was racist vs. non-racists, therefore anyone celebrating confederacy must be automatically racist. The reality is much more complex, with racists on both sides.

The war was complex, these statues are not.

How is that even possible? If the war was complex, over complex issues, how statues related to it are suddenly not? What in erecting statues simplifies the issue? What other issues could be simplified with statues? Could I make a statue to life's meaning and suddenly have it all cleared up?

Originally Posted by Derid
Seems like an odd thing to focus on to be honest. Honestly, to me the whole dealio about statues looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike.

How about some sympathy with people whose entire ancestry is caught up in the slave trade.

Everyone got ancestry. The dead don't care about your sympathy.

We are still talking about tearing down 100 year old statues today, in 2017, and all you can come up with as rationale is selectively pointing out that bad stuff happened in the past. You are still unable to show how torn down statues would help anybody today. You are still unwilling to accept that societal norms changed since 1800s.

Maybe stronger example would better highlight how norms change. For example,Socrates was known for pederasty (sex with young boys) and that was normal practice in Athens. So the founder of Western philosophy would be a criminal pedophile by modern standards. Should we start destroying classical Greek statues over this and other similar "crimes" as well?

Also, what other historical grievances should we consider? What about Native Americans, do they get your permission to tear down Plymouth Rock and statues to Columbus, as these monuments symbolize and celebrate the start of what would be considered a genocide by a modern standard? How about some sympathy there as well?

Last edited by Sini; 08/29/17 04:25 AM.