warning - wall of text and soapbox inc!

As a disclaimer I appreciate that we can talk about this stuff without people getting truely upset. It's good to have these kinds of talks to refresh our thinking on the subjects, IMO. Being able to talk about controversial topics without letting emotion get in the way is truely one of the bigger signs of maturity.

Who a person associates with says a lot about them. While this is a very common and old statement, it holds truth regardless of circumstances. In fact, if you are at the scene of a crime, even though you didn't do anything and maybe thought it was wrong etc, you are an accessory and will be arrested and treated as a criminal. The same thing applies with who you hang with. If you hang with gang banging drug dealers, even if you are none of those, people will associate you with gangs and dealing drugs. Common sense.

Over my 12 years in MMOs I've seen standards degrade over time. I'm actually the one not jumping ship when I say I'm keeping to my standards. I hold those standards before loyalty to any organization because organizational standards change, more frequently today than ever before. This is true even in RL for me. I think for myself first, and I join organizations that hold to my standards. If I join an organization and later that organization lets go of their standards, how can I stay with that organization? This is a common problem throughout history, whether RL or gaming.

Of course much of the debate stems not from an overt change in standard, but a changing of the definitions used to create that standard. Such as:
- What actions define griefing?
- What actions define PKing?
- What actions are dishonorable?

It's easy to say 'We are honorable'. It's much harder to ask yourself if your definition of what is NOT honorable has changed in the past 10 years.

IMO infiltrating people's organizations through lies and deceit and destroying them from the inside is dishonorable. Our governments do it in RL because we're talking about living or dying IRL. In a game, I'd rather win because I'm a better combat PvPer/strategist or could whittle down their morale through defeats or a long siege and cutting off supply lines, or maybe my industrial arm is better and I win through attrition. Infiltrating a guild by lying about who you are or not fully disclosing such (which btw is 'illegal' for applicants to our guild and obviously grounds for guild removal) and then 'beating' them by dry looting their entire savings and using your position of trust in their guild to destroy their infrastructure then laughing at them because you just crushed their whole desire to play is not honorable.

It's illegal for any KGB to do it to KGB, so why is it ok to do it to others? That's not honor. Honor is fighting fair. Fighting the enemy in the same way we want to be fought. Beat them on the battlefield. Spy on them externally through scouts.

Winning does not justify any means to gain victory. Just because 'everyone is doing it' doesn't make it right or necessary. The only thing that becomes necessary is to guard against such behavior. So you are right in that we can't change them or the degrading morals of guilds on the net, but what we do have control over is what we do and who we associate with.

If KGB was dry looted, we would be pissed. I think we would feel cheated. The golden rule applies here I think. We don't want spies and crap. Applicants lying to gain access, cheat, steal, etc. So why are we doing it to other people and saying its ok? Or if we are not doing that (I hope not) why do we turn a blind eye when our associates do it?

Nobody can argue the goons couldn't steamroll KGB's city if they have many more in numbers (going off of what people have already said in this thread). This is the same in any game, to a certain extent. So the decision has to be made to say 'it's ok for them to do that' or to stand up for what KGB has stood for or maybe it's what I thought KGB stood for, which is doing what is right and honorable in these kinds of games and fighting those who are doing dishonorable things. Anti-PK. Anti-Griefer (someone who lies and cheats you and then laughs about it is a griefer). Yes KGB city would probably be destroyed, but sometimes that's the concequence for standing up for what you believe in.

Some things do change though. I don't think in UO we just jumped on anyone who wasn't KGB or allies, although I didn't play that game with KGB. I think the rules of engagement were don't shoot until shot at. And now we employ more modern standards of not ally, shoot it. This is more of a defense against people using covert, meta ways of gaining intel (people making a 'neutral' guild to spy on enemy activity). So yeah you just have to assume everyone you see who's not waving allied colors is a spy.

Taking that to the next level, it is now common practice for large guilds to create second accounts and lie to gain ally standings with a guild, so they can not only spy from the inside, gaining access to all the secured boards, etc, but also to do internal damage to them by deleting their crap and using the meta advantage to destroy the guild from the inside. So we also have to guard against that.

Guarding against these is different than actually doing them ourselves. Pretty sure KGB is of the opinion that lying and cheating a fellow ally is dishonorable, and when an enemy infiltrates you and takes that oath and then lies and cheats their fellow ally, which technically if they took the oath they are an ally, then it's dishonorable. KGB fights against the dishonorable. KGB doesn't side with the dishonorable.

I'm starting to talk in circles, so I'll conclude. lol

So you see I'm very concerned with who I associate myself with and who I put my efforts into, because TBH it's getting harder and harder to find guilds who fight honorably, don't use meta gaming, and don't laugh when opponents are defeated and instead respect their enemies and thank them for good fights.

I ran with KGB in shadowbane (when I came back the second time - my original guild was disbanded). I loved every minute of it. I like everyone in KGB. I felt like we fought with honor, but now I'm thinking maybe I just didn't know what we were doing covertly?

Does KGB use meta gaming to lie and gain trust with other guilds and then dry loot their infrastructure, and then laugh about it? I hope we don't, although I'm aware and respect it is not my decision to make. Next quesiton is do we not care when other guilds do it? I thought we used to think it was dispicable, but I could be wrong.

The only thing that is my decision is whether or not I associate myself with KGB and invest my time and work into building KGB. I can only do that if I believe in what KGB stands for. I think that is true of all KGBers. So it's not like I or I would hope any of us can enlist with an organization upon first looking at what they stand for, and then never questioning it again. Standards change if you are not keeping a close eye on them. If you take baby steps toward lowering standards, eventually you look around and see KGB is doing what KGB used to fight against. I don't think anyone wants to see that.

Of course maybe the plan is to not stir the pot now, and attack them later once we've built up enough presence and allies because they're slimeballs (IMO dry looting a guild via lies and then laughing about it makes you a slimeball - never could trust you again).

Maybe MMOs are getting to the point, though, where if you stand for honor and no-meta gaming you won't have any allies, because the global standards have just become low all around? lol I don't know.

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