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JetStar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!


Read the CBO report. How can you contradict the nonpartisan CBO who are the experts on this? I bet you are enjoying Sarah Palin's Alaska on TLC.


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Nuke the whales.


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Originally Posted By: Donkleaps
Nuke the whales.


Its nuke the gay whales.


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You are walking with blinders on Jet.

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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are walking with blinders on Jet.


I would say the exact same thing to you.


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Jey the reason the CBO was able to initially predict a deficit reduction, was because of the ENORMOUS level of taxes and fees imposed by the Obamacare bill, not because anything was being made more efficient.

I will probably not write in depth until Monday, but for now - on top of all the portions that have yet to recieve funding, and the huge taxes - its safe to say that there is no efficeny present. Did you take a look at that flowchart that plotted out the huge beuaracracy? Uhg.

Also, the estimates have been revised now to put the cost about 170B in the red... will post sources later when I address the bill in more depth.

Part of the problem, is that some of the base assumptions on revenue are flawed... not due to sloppy work on the part of the CBO - but rather revenues for yet to be implemented taxes are simply hard to nail down, because they depend heavily on market forces.

One example is that Obamacare introduces a 3.9% tax on all home sales. Obviously the type of revenue this tax will produce is an uncertainty, it depends on home prices and market activity.

Another example is raising the Capital Gains tax... but the more you raise the tax, the less economic activity occurs... and also the general market will fluctuate... making predicting revenues from said activity hard to predict.

Yet another factor, is changing estimates due to the number of companies that are expected to continue providing employer-based insurance as opposed to State managed health-exchanges. This number is being steadily revised downward, as under Obamacare it will be simpler and cheaper for most companies to simply stop offering insurance, and pay the fines instead.

Jet, why dont you stop for a minutes and actually "look" at what Obamacare is and does. Not what it was supposed to be, not what Obama said it would be, but what it actually is.

Good intentions do not necessarily translate into good policy. It just seems that you are so into what Obamacare intended to be, that you have yet to look at what it actually is or does.

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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are walking with blinders on Jet.


I would say the exact same thing to you.


I know you are but what am I?

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I had a long drawn out conversation with you Jet, in my head and began to give it legs here, but alas I decided not to.

I'll just say the moral was being who you are and how you currently are in your life differs greatly from mine. While we deal in the same environments, work ethic and market of IT I can say having a wife and kids does play a role in one's thoughts about the current administration.

I'm not saying it's bad to be you or what you have, trust me, but not having the things I currently do allows you to think in a different light and I honestly and truly do feel if things were different you would have a very different aspect on life.

Not going into this here but I know from our one on one conversations in the past you respect who I am and what I believe in as well I to you so maybe in the future we can argue politics in a better arena smile

For now I'll continue to watch my FOX programming and continue to believe in those values I've grown into for this was not always the case and at a time long ago I would have considered myself a democrat by today's political terms but knowing what I've had, currently have and wish to continue to have you may call me a conservative.

Much love my friend..

Last edited by Ictinike; 11/20/10 11:27 PM.


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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Ebola
Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.


Quick question. Do you have auto insurance that the government MADE you purchase?


What does that have to do with Obamacare ??

Last edited by Prism; 11/21/10 12:05 PM.

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JetStar Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Ictinike
I had a long drawn out conversation with you Jet, in my head and began to give it legs here, but alas I decided not to.

I'll just say the moral was being who you are and how you currently are in your life differs greatly from mine. While we deal in the same environments, work ethic and market of IT I can say having a wife and kids does play a role in one's thoughts about the current administration.

I'm not saying it's bad to be you or what you have, trust me, but not having the things I currently do allows you to think in a different light and I honestly and truly do feel if things were different you would have a very different aspect on life.

Not going into this here but I know from our one on one conversations in the past you respect who I am and what I believe in as well I to you so maybe in the future we can argue politics in a better arena smile

For now I'll continue to watch my FOX programming and continue to believe in those values I've grown into for this was not always the case and at a time long ago I would have considered myself a democrat by today's political terms but knowing what I've had, currently have and wish to continue to have you may call me a conservative.

Much love my friend..


Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

I got some more research to do to catch up with Derid.


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