The KGB Oracle Forums KGB National Announcements, News, and Help The KGB Sentinel Some thoughts on the upcoming Holidays

Well first of all to friends and foes alike. Happy Holidays and best wishes in the New Year!

MEMBERS: There is a heated discussion in the new AOC Members section regarding RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. KGB has a reputation to keep, but AOC is a different world. We have to adapt, but not lose who we are in the process. I hope each of you will take the time to get involved and voice your opinion.

FRIENDS: we would like to hear from you on this subject also. In a OPEN PVP and FULL LOOT server, how do we keep our values from making us the suckers in every engagement. We need RULES OF ENGAGEMENT that take that into account, but yet dont make us mindless RPKs.

The decisions we are making in the next few weeks are going to change KGB forever. Make sure, being a Citizen, Friend, or even Foe, that you get your opinion heard.

I look forward to hearing from all of you, and I know I speak for all when I say, ALL THE BEST this Holiday Season!

UPDATE!!!!
This thread now includes our latest draft of a new rules of engagement. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR INPUT! We are taking all this into account as we change the rules to adapt KGB to modern gaming PVP. Please chime in and help us do it right!

A return to a full engagement, full loot environment will be a welcome change, but also cause problems for the traditional KGB rule set. The reality was that KGB members did what they had to do and in many cases, created a political nightmare for themselves and Jet, as they Pk'd when necessary, had alts who were PK's and gave back shot for shot when they got hit. My fondest memories are with KGB on the fileds of UO Pac and Siege Perilous but I also recall a lot of the infighting and dynamic crap that occurred because of the code and the numerous violations of it, mine included.

My advice, since you provided me the opportunity, would be to alter your code and rules to be more conducive to the new environment and still hold on to your traditional value system. Many people believe that AOC will not provide the "protect the innocent" environment that previos games have, but it will actually provide more than that.

As a general guideline, I would suggest you adopt some of the previous game mentalities, recognizing that foes will not be immediately obvious except for some of the more notorious guilds. Protecting yourselves, and your loot, will be as important as your protection of others. Stand and wait to get attacked everytime will be a losing proposition, and aggresive tactics will open you to the usual junk KGB gets in every game. So, get your "new" rule set's created quickly, make them flexible in design and implementation, provide your field commanders and in game leadership with enough lee-way to proceed as they see fit on the scene, and make sure every enemy and friend alike knows that KGB will still uphold it's value system, but will not be the punching bag of every "dread" whatever that comes along.

AOC will require a mentality that is different, as the game appears to truly attempt to hold on to the feel and environment of the Hyborian Age as Howard dreamed it to be. A specific character class does not equate to good or evil, and many will be lost without solid guilds like KGB to support their efforts in survival. You will want your new standards to meet that, but allow your membership to act as they need to. Some of your Vanguard rule set would stand you well, I imagine, but only time will tell.

I would not say it is a heated debate concerning KGB ROE's, but they are in question concerning traditional KGB involvement in games these days. As I had pointed out, the old days of KGB defending the weak has long died out it seems, as was pointed out to me it stems from the idea that games these days are not made with the red vs blue mentality, thus the dilemma.

While I agree that the scope of the game has changed and that to survive KGB must also change and adapt or face destruction, I am always a sucker for tradition in a guild, to me it's what gives the guild it's identity and uniqueness which separates it from other more common guilds. Now I am not going to sit here and tell you guys how to run your guild or that my ideas are exactly what you should do, that would be presumptuous of me. Although I will say this, KGB to me is one of the oldest and strongest guilds built on the ideals of empowering their members, protecting those in need, with fair, honorable, and diplomatic play, with the overall intention of creating a free state.

To this end I have been looking over your documents and ranking structures, and what strikes me is that some policies and ranks that might help you in todays games you have over the years rewritten or done away with entirely.

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Today's KGB Marshals of Justice
The Marshals of Justice have a unique historic background in the Knights of Glory and Beer (See Original Definition). Today, Marshals serve a much different purpose:

Marshals of Justice are appointed by the High King, Prime Minister, or Chief of Staff to execute administrative processes, and perform critical functions to maintain guild resources. Marshal's report directly to the federal executive branch (HK, PM, COS) and do not possess the authority to act on their own. Marshals DO NOT hold rank or authority unless performing a direct order from the High King or executive branch member (HK, PM, COS). Here are their primary duties:

Maintain the Hall of Fame by fulfilling change requests and requested additions.
Review award requests and get approval from Faction Leader and the High King. Then post the award on the Oracle, KGB Sentinel, and HOF.
Assist with recruiting, posting of applications, and orientation of new members with the Faction leaders guidance and approval.
Post regular news stories on the KGB Sentinel.
Assist in the maintenance of the KGB Website.
Serve as an example to all members regarding conduct and duty.

Benefits:

All Marshals will serve on the KGB Senate and help steer the guild and its policies.
Moderator Status on the KGB Oracle.
Automatic full member to all Factions and Leadership Forums.

The following guidelines are for historical reference only. The information below does not apply to the current incarnation of the KGB MOJ's:

Historic Role of the KGB Marshals of Justice (disbanded after UO era)
A ministerial officer, appointed by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King of KGB, to execute the process of the courts, Laws, and Code of the KGB Constitution. These special officers will fall under the command of the Provost General of the Army (G5). As a KGB Marshal of Justice, these individuals have a "license to enforce KGB justice and to terminate potential enemies without question. A Marshal may use his discretion to determine is necessary to deal with complex problems of enforcement beyond the scope of the standard military. Marshals are only required to follow orders from the Provost General of the Army (G5), The Supreme Court, and the High King. KGB Marshals will wear the Guild title of Marshal of Justice at all times.

Conduct of a KGB Marshal
KGB Marshals are expected to adhere the KGB personal conduct at all time. A Marshal has special powers, and with these powers comes an extra responsibility to be an example to the Guild.

KGB Marshal Uniform
KGB Marshals will wear a black robe (The darkest color we can make on SP) with the red apron from the Paladin uniform. This uniform must be worn at all times as the Marshals dress uniform.

Appointment
Will be by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King
KGB marshals may only be appointed by the KGB Guild Master. After this appointment the marshal becomes a Marshal Elect and will be closely monitored until the High King approves the Marshal Elects appointment. KGB Marshals will hold the title of KGB Paladin when not deputized.

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The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.

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Member of Armed Forces Conduct Code

All members of the KGB Armed Forces must obey their assigned commanding officer's orders without question.
All members must SALUTE any member of the Armed Forces (regardless of rank), any members of the Supreme Court, and or any Member of the Executive Branch.
Members have the right to report conduct of their superiors to the CIC without fear on reprisal AFTER a situation occurs. If you do not agree with your commander, you are still required to carry out his orders at that time, but may request a review.
General's will be referred to as GENERAL followed by their name when on active duty. Members that possess a military rank will be referred to as SIR followed by their name.
You will be placed on ACTIVE DUTY during emergencies and when your Commanding officer calls you to action. You may ask to be excused if extenuating circumstances arise.
All members will uphold the highest level of duty and responsibility. Members are dedicating to helping others and to uphold the laws of the KGB Constitution.

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As stated before, you have the military performing the policing actions of the state, while this is not a impossibility, it does draw dedicated military force away from critical locations weakening your projection of force in those locations to pursue what might turn out to be low value targets in the end. It also requires your military to always be on stand by, unable to train and equip properly. This creates another logistics issue when you take into consideration that the military is a hammer not a scalpel. I understand that players will play, and that the military doesn't just stand around all day in formation waiting for a call, but if you call on them to perform the mundane and the common often, then it could become an issue to organize and commit to an action as they will most likely not be able to muster fast enough.

Without listing them, General Orders 1 and 3 respectively show that KGB could easily reinstate Marshals to do this job of finding and identifying possible threats to KGB, and in some cases handle the situation fully and/or report their findings and recommend appropriate actions. KGB has become a nation of laws and I find that while order is essential to the well being of a community it can at times create too much red tape as well. In my assessment the Marshals of old could cut through this red tape to better and more effectively serve the guild, they seemed to be more flexible and able to respond quicker to a arising situation then a bulky military presence could.

I almost forgot the GSS, these individuals could work closely with the newly reinstated Marshals as their eyes and ears, as agents of the marshals they then could conduct operations to secure the guild and keep them informed on enemy movements. Every Inquisitor has a retinue, every spy has a spy master, every agent has a handler, every asset has a control. The GSS could operate in tandem with a Marshal, conduct thier own operations and then pass down information to a Marshal, or the Marshal could become an extention to the GSS and work for them as a asset by using the information to best suit his mission.

It's either this or KGB needs to get the GSS to fill in the gaps. Meaning the GSS needs to work harder at identifying potential enemies, and aquiring the freedom to act on that information to carry out KGB justice minus the red tape. As I read the GSS policies and responsibilities, they already seem to have this freedom, so what is being done with this power? Why can't GSS perform the functions outside of the standing military to allow the guild to maintain its principles of defense and protection? In retrospect the Marshals of old would not be needed if the GSS was doing what is in thier power to do, which is to identify threats, eliminate them and then report them. In a pvp environment there may not be red vs blue anymore but if you have a strong unconventional force gathering intel and providing small unit operations then the need to mass mobilize and to keep every citizen on a shoot first ask questions later mentality might become less of an issue.

All,

I personally feel that our best bet is to establish a "Base" of some sort and defend the hell out of it. Anyone in proximity is fair game. I also think we should send the message that we stand for fairness and try to break any zergs that develop. I hope that we do not become a zerg as I have no interest in playing SB style Conan. How were things handled on Vanguard? Perhaps the best way to go about things is to dust off the "KOS" list and have that be a central theme and place of reference. This list should be editable and updatable by any active Member and not just 1 - 2 IC. The more people we have giving feed back to the KOS list the better in so far as those with access are trustworthy. I beleive Conan will pose new challenges but not insurmountable ones. If all else fails we can just unleash me and Syev on the server and the problems will be solved :0

VULDAN AND DRAKIIS, THANK YOU! for the excellent and well thought out information. It is appreciated!

I had written another post which counter argues the normal tendency for guilds to cling to old tactics like guarding bases as Uber spoke of which is not as productive as it seems considering that all guilds do the same thing. Guarding bases puts you into a defensive stance too often and creates a isolationist mentality of paranoia, leaving you reactionary instead of proactive. Don't mistake me, protecting what is yours is vital but do not focus so much on this tactic alone and if possible arrange unorthodox style to your approach, thus keeping a enemy attacker unsure of how dangerous you truly may be.

But unfortunately I lost it as the page expired . Generally I don't want to destroy my relationship with KGB if I tear at the fabric of the guild as it stands today too often, so I will refrain from my revolutionary libertine ideologies concerning guild organization and logistics in favor of trusting you within the leadership of KGB to know whats best for KGB.

Keep in mind that sometimes change is necessary even when it doesn't seem so, and especially when you grow too comfortable with the way things are now. As a nation of laws, complexity can be overly cumbersome at times yes but even policy has it's place and ultimately laws were meant to be changed, broken, or bent to better suit the people.

After all is it not for the people, by the people? In the end you can be a carbon copy of other guilds and slowly let your qualities fall by the wayside, or you can be reborn The KGB of Old.

Not sure if i count as friend yet, but this is intriguing... so here's my 2cents.

Identification of enemies is all well and good, but I honestly don't see how AoC is different from how you treated the ROEs in shadowbane. All the elements in AoC parallels that in AoC. Hell, in some respects, it's downright a copy. You didn't have to go rpk in shadowbane, i doubt you'd have to go that far in AoC.

The problem in this case is that a full loot system promotes rpking and the need for quick decisions. You can't create a kill list for everyone on the server and, most likely, other guilds will be more aggressive and will always make the first move. Here's where I think KGB's legendary static rule system shines. Something clear and concise such as; responding known enemies, identifying hostile intent or even attacking any large group that encroaches on a guild group, would be fine. On the other hand, i believe these rules would have to be more aggressive than you guys are used to because in a full loot game, as i'm sure you are aware, the first move is everything.

If you think about it, clear ROEs can not only protect your members but, if each member abides by the ROEs to the letter, you can garner a reputation quickly on how to and how not to act when one sees a KGB member.

Since it's been a long time since a real PvP game has come out (10 bucks most of the players will be WoWers), establishing a reputation early with set ROEs could influence how KGB ultimately fares in the keepwars.

Uber a kos list update by all members will be a mess we had all members giving input in vanguard and the list ended up 3-4 pages long in games like vanguard and conan and probably the rest of future games they are making a long standing structure with KGB obsolete.

I love draklis thought and i am glad to see our old friend vuldan express his opinions their thoughts are exactly with mine. KGB can adapt to this new game but we need to keep ahold of our core values and implement that into the ROE not only to protect our people but to also protect our reputation.

I wanted to again thank everyone for their comments. Right now in our MEMBERS ONLY forum, we are hashing out our rules of engagement. At this point it is an open discussion. All members have a say, the debate continues. Once we all generally can live with what we come up with, I will present the finished document to the KGB Senate for final approval.

At that point, I will add it to the KGB Constitution.

Here is what we have so far. Again, this is in draft form and the discussions continue:

In review, here is what we have so far (This is starting to come together):

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FRIENDS LIST
A FRIENDS list will be established and friends given access to the KGB ALLIES FORUM here at the Oracle. Both Federal and Faction governments would keep posted (Using the KGB Wiki) an accurate and updated list at all times. Anyone on the Friends list may NEVER be attacked without specific permission from the FACTION or FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

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ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.

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CORPSE CAMPING
KGB engages in corpse camping only as retaliation for camping KGB members or allies. The ranking officer at the scene must announce to the corpse, "KGB engages in corpse camping only as punishment for corpse camping our membership. You have assisted and or committed this offense against our Guild or allies, therefore you are being punished. Please log out".
The act of corpse camping is camping a dead player and killing them again and again when they clearly have no chance to defend themselves.

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Again I would appreciate all of your opinions regarding this draft. Thank you again and Happy Holidays!