Well first of all to friends and foes alike. Happy Holidays and best wishes in the New Year!
MEMBERS: There is a heated discussion in the new AOC Members section regarding RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. KGB has a reputation to keep, but AOC is a different world. We have to adapt, but not lose who we are in the process. I hope each of you will take the time to get involved and voice your opinion.
FRIENDS: we would like to hear from you on this subject also. In a OPEN PVP and FULL LOOT server, how do we keep our values from making us the suckers in every engagement. We need RULES OF ENGAGEMENT that take that into account, but yet dont make us mindless RPKs.
The decisions we are making in the next few weeks are going to change KGB forever. Make sure, being a Citizen, Friend, or even Foe, that you get your opinion heard.
I look forward to hearing from all of you, and I know I speak for all when I say, ALL THE BEST this Holiday Season!
UPDATE!!!!
This thread now includes our latest draft of a new rules of engagement. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR INPUT! We are taking all this into account as we change the rules to adapt KGB to modern gaming PVP. Please chime in and help us do it right!
A return to a full engagement, full loot environment will be a welcome change, but also cause problems for the traditional KGB rule set. The reality was that KGB members did what they had to do and in many cases, created a political nightmare for themselves and Jet, as they Pk'd when necessary, had alts who were PK's and gave back shot for shot when they got hit. My fondest memories are with KGB on the fileds of UO Pac and Siege Perilous but I also recall a lot of the infighting and dynamic crap that occurred because of the code and the numerous violations of it, mine included.
My advice, since you provided me the opportunity, would be to alter your code and rules to be more conducive to the new environment and still hold on to your traditional value system. Many people believe that AOC will not provide the "protect the innocent" environment that previos games have, but it will actually provide more than that.
As a general guideline, I would suggest you adopt some of the previous game mentalities, recognizing that foes will not be immediately obvious except for some of the more notorious guilds. Protecting yourselves, and your loot, will be as important as your protection of others. Stand and wait to get attacked everytime will be a losing proposition, and aggresive tactics will open you to the usual junk KGB gets in every game. So, get your "new" rule set's created quickly, make them flexible in design and implementation, provide your field commanders and in game leadership with enough lee-way to proceed as they see fit on the scene, and make sure every enemy and friend alike knows that KGB will still uphold it's value system, but will not be the punching bag of every "dread" whatever that comes along.
AOC will require a mentality that is different, as the game appears to truly attempt to hold on to the feel and environment of the Hyborian Age as Howard dreamed it to be. A specific character class does not equate to good or evil, and many will be lost without solid guilds like KGB to support their efforts in survival. You will want your new standards to meet that, but allow your membership to act as they need to. Some of your Vanguard rule set would stand you well, I imagine, but only time will tell.
I would not say it is a heated debate concerning KGB ROE's, but they are in question concerning traditional KGB involvement in games these days. As I had pointed out, the old days of KGB defending the weak has long died out it seems, as was pointed out to me it stems from the idea that games these days are not made with the red vs blue mentality, thus the dilemma.
While I agree that the scope of the game has changed and that to survive KGB must also change and adapt or face destruction, I am always a sucker for tradition in a guild, to me it's what gives the guild it's identity and uniqueness which separates it from other more common guilds. Now I am not going to sit here and tell you guys how to run your guild or that my ideas are exactly what you should do, that would be presumptuous of me. Although I will say this, KGB to me is one of the oldest and strongest guilds built on the ideals of empowering their members, protecting those in need, with fair, honorable, and diplomatic play, with the overall intention of creating a free state.
To this end I have been looking over your documents and ranking structures, and what strikes me is that some policies and ranks that might help you in todays games you have over the years rewritten or done away with entirely.
Quote:
Today's KGB Marshals of Justice
The Marshals of Justice have a unique historic background in the Knights of Glory and Beer (See Original Definition). Today, Marshals serve a much different purpose:
Marshals of Justice are appointed by the High King, Prime Minister, or Chief of Staff to execute administrative processes, and perform critical functions to maintain guild resources. Marshal's report directly to the federal executive branch (HK, PM, COS) and do not possess the authority to act on their own. Marshals DO NOT hold rank or authority unless performing a direct order from the High King or executive branch member (HK, PM, COS). Here are their primary duties:
Maintain the Hall of Fame by fulfilling change requests and requested additions.
Review award requests and get approval from Faction Leader and the High King. Then post the award on the Oracle, KGB Sentinel, and HOF.
Assist with recruiting, posting of applications, and orientation of new members with the Faction leaders guidance and approval.
Post regular news stories on the KGB Sentinel.
Assist in the maintenance of the KGB Website.
Serve as an example to all members regarding conduct and duty.
Benefits:
All Marshals will serve on the KGB Senate and help steer the guild and its policies.
Moderator Status on the KGB Oracle.
Automatic full member to all Factions and Leadership Forums.
The following guidelines are for historical reference only. The information below does not apply to the current incarnation of the KGB MOJ's:
Historic Role of the KGB Marshals of Justice (disbanded after UO era)
A ministerial officer, appointed by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King of KGB, to execute the process of the courts, Laws, and Code of the KGB Constitution. These special officers will fall under the command of the Provost General of the Army (G5). As a KGB Marshal of Justice, these individuals have a "license to enforce KGB justice and to terminate potential enemies without question. A Marshal may use his discretion to determine is necessary to deal with complex problems of enforcement beyond the scope of the standard military. Marshals are only required to follow orders from the Provost General of the Army (G5), The Supreme Court, and the High King. KGB Marshals will wear the Guild title of Marshal of Justice at all times.
Conduct of a KGB Marshal
KGB Marshals are expected to adhere the KGB personal conduct at all time. A Marshal has special powers, and with these powers comes an extra responsibility to be an example to the Guild.
KGB Marshal Uniform
KGB Marshals will wear a black robe (The darkest color we can make on SP) with the red apron from the Paladin uniform. This uniform must be worn at all times as the Marshals dress uniform.
Appointment
Will be by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King
KGB marshals may only be appointed by the KGB Guild Master. After this appointment the marshal becomes a Marshal Elect and will be closely monitored until the High King approves the Marshal Elects appointment. KGB Marshals will hold the title of KGB Paladin when not deputized.
The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.
Quote:
Member of Armed Forces Conduct Code
All members of the KGB Armed Forces must obey their assigned commanding officer's orders without question.
All members must SALUTE any member of the Armed Forces (regardless of rank), any members of the Supreme Court, and or any Member of the Executive Branch.
Members have the right to report conduct of their superiors to the CIC without fear on reprisal AFTER a situation occurs. If you do not agree with your commander, you are still required to carry out his orders at that time, but may request a review.
General's will be referred to as GENERAL followed by their name when on active duty. Members that possess a military rank will be referred to as SIR followed by their name.
You will be placed on ACTIVE DUTY during emergencies and when your Commanding officer calls you to action. You may ask to be excused if extenuating circumstances arise.
All members will uphold the highest level of duty and responsibility. Members are dedicating to helping others and to uphold the laws of the KGB Constitution.
As stated before, you have the military performing the policing actions of the state, while this is not a impossibility, it does draw dedicated military force away from critical locations weakening your projection of force in those locations to pursue what might turn out to be low value targets in the end. It also requires your military to always be on stand by, unable to train and equip properly. This creates another logistics issue when you take into consideration that the military is a hammer not a scalpel. I understand that players will play, and that the military doesn't just stand around all day in formation waiting for a call, but if you call on them to perform the mundane and the common often, then it could become an issue to organize and commit to an action as they will most likely not be able to muster fast enough.
Without listing them, General Orders 1 and 3 respectively show that KGB could easily reinstate Marshals to do this job of finding and identifying possible threats to KGB, and in some cases handle the situation fully and/or report their findings and recommend appropriate actions. KGB has become a nation of laws and I find that while order is essential to the well being of a community it can at times create too much red tape as well. In my assessment the Marshals of old could cut through this red tape to better and more effectively serve the guild, they seemed to be more flexible and able to respond quicker to a arising situation then a bulky military presence could.
I almost forgot the GSS, these individuals could work closely with the newly reinstated Marshals as their eyes and ears, as agents of the marshals they then could conduct operations to secure the guild and keep them informed on enemy movements. Every Inquisitor has a retinue, every spy has a spy master, every agent has a handler, every asset has a control. The GSS could operate in tandem with a Marshal, conduct thier own operations and then pass down information to a Marshal, or the Marshal could become an extention to the GSS and work for them as a asset by using the information to best suit his mission.
It's either this or KGB needs to get the GSS to fill in the gaps. Meaning the GSS needs to work harder at identifying potential enemies, and aquiring the freedom to act on that information to carry out KGB justice minus the red tape. As I read the GSS policies and responsibilities, they already seem to have this freedom, so what is being done with this power? Why can't GSS perform the functions outside of the standing military to allow the guild to maintain its principles of defense and protection? In retrospect the Marshals of old would not be needed if the GSS was doing what is in thier power to do, which is to identify threats, eliminate them and then report them. In a pvp environment there may not be red vs blue anymore but if you have a strong unconventional force gathering intel and providing small unit operations then the need to mass mobilize and to keep every citizen on a shoot first ask questions later mentality might become less of an issue.
All,
I personally feel that our best bet is to establish a "Base" of some sort and defend the hell out of it. Anyone in proximity is fair game. I also think we should send the message that we stand for fairness and try to break any zergs that develop. I hope that we do not become a zerg as I have no interest in playing SB style Conan. How were things handled on Vanguard? Perhaps the best way to go about things is to dust off the "KOS" list and have that be a central theme and place of reference. This list should be editable and updatable by any active Member and not just 1 - 2 IC. The more people we have giving feed back to the KOS list the better in so far as those with access are trustworthy. I beleive Conan will pose new challenges but not insurmountable ones. If all else fails we can just unleash me and Syev on the server and the problems will be solved :0
VULDAN AND DRAKIIS, THANK YOU! for the excellent and well thought out information. It is appreciated!
I had written another post which counter argues the normal tendency for guilds to cling to old tactics like guarding bases as Uber spoke of which is not as productive as it seems considering that all guilds do the same thing. Guarding bases puts you into a defensive stance too often and creates a isolationist mentality of paranoia, leaving you reactionary instead of proactive. Don't mistake me, protecting what is yours is vital but do not focus so much on this tactic alone and if possible arrange unorthodox style to your approach, thus keeping a enemy attacker unsure of how dangerous you truly may be.
But unfortunately I lost it as the page expired
. Generally I don't want to destroy my relationship with KGB if I tear at the fabric of the guild as it stands today too often, so I will refrain from my revolutionary libertine ideologies concerning guild organization and logistics in favor of trusting you within the leadership of KGB to know whats best for KGB.
Keep in mind that sometimes change is necessary even when it doesn't seem so, and especially when you grow too comfortable with the way things are now. As a nation of laws, complexity can be overly cumbersome at times yes but even policy has it's place and ultimately laws were meant to be changed, broken, or bent to better suit the people.
After all is it not for the people, by the people? In the end you can be a carbon copy of other guilds and slowly let your qualities fall by the wayside, or you can be reborn The KGB of Old.
Not sure if i count as friend yet, but this is intriguing... so here's my 2cents.
Identification of enemies is all well and good, but I honestly don't see how AoC is different from how you treated the ROEs in shadowbane. All the elements in AoC parallels that in AoC. Hell, in some respects, it's downright a copy. You didn't have to go rpk in shadowbane, i doubt you'd have to go that far in AoC.
The problem in this case is that a full loot system promotes rpking and the need for quick decisions. You can't create a kill list for everyone on the server and, most likely, other guilds will be more aggressive and will always make the first move. Here's where I think KGB's legendary static rule system shines. Something clear and concise such as; responding known enemies, identifying hostile intent or even attacking any large group that encroaches on a guild group, would be fine. On the other hand, i believe these rules would have to be more aggressive than you guys are used to because in a full loot game, as i'm sure you are aware, the first move is everything.
If you think about it, clear ROEs can not only protect your members but, if each member abides by the ROEs to the letter, you can garner a reputation quickly on how to and how not to act when one sees a KGB member.
Since it's been a long time since a real PvP game has come out (10 bucks most of the players will be WoWers), establishing a reputation early with set ROEs could influence how KGB ultimately fares in the keepwars.
Uber a kos list update by all members will be a mess we had all members giving input in vanguard and the list ended up 3-4 pages long in games like vanguard and conan and probably the rest of future games they are making a long standing structure with KGB obsolete.
I love draklis thought and i am glad to see our old friend vuldan express his opinions their thoughts are exactly with mine. KGB can adapt to this new game but we need to keep ahold of our core values and implement that into the ROE not only to protect our people but to also protect our reputation.
I wanted to again thank everyone for their comments. Right now in our MEMBERS ONLY forum, we are hashing out our rules of engagement. At this point it is an open discussion. All members have a say, the debate continues. Once we all generally can live with what we come up with, I will present the finished document to the KGB Senate for final approval.
At that point, I will add it to the KGB Constitution.
Here is what we have so far. Again, this is in draft form and the discussions continue:
In review, here is what we have so far (This is starting to come together):
Quote:
FRIENDS LIST
A FRIENDS list will be established and friends given access to the KGB ALLIES FORUM here at the Oracle. Both Federal and Faction governments would keep posted (Using the KGB Wiki) an accurate and updated list at all times. Anyone on the Friends list may NEVER be attacked without specific permission from the FACTION or FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Quote:
ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.
Quote:
CORPSE CAMPING
KGB engages in corpse camping only as retaliation for camping KGB members or allies. The ranking officer at the scene must announce to the corpse, "KGB engages in corpse camping only as punishment for corpse camping our membership. You have assisted and or committed this offense against our Guild or allies, therefore you are being punished. Please log out".
The act of corpse camping is camping a dead player and killing them again and again when they clearly have no chance to defend themselves.
Again I would appreciate all of your opinions regarding this draft. Thank you again and Happy Holidays!
Quote:
FRIENDS LIST
A FRIENDS list will be established and friends given access to the KGB ALLIES FORUM here at the Oracle. Both Federal and Faction governments would keep posted (Using the KGB Wiki) an accurate and updated list at all times. Anyone on the Friends list may NEVER be attacked without specific permission from the FACTION or FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
In the case of treason, what then? In this case of treason or betrayal, what if only one person witnesses it, and no Officials are on at the time of the incident? Are you saying that the criminal is to be allowed to continue doing damage and then escape without any opposition?
Quote:
ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.
In my humble opinion, what might be best served here is instead of instilling an highly aggressive attitude upon members since that is the general state all players will have already being that it's pvp, remind them more of being cautious, and warning those they come across that they are prepared to fight if given a reason to. Warnings ultimateums and demands can open up dialog which may avoid a problem altogether or learn information otherwise unknown. If ignored then I could understand a threat level increase and eventual hostilities. I'd hate to be attacked by KGB as I walk up to a group just because I am automatically considered a THREAT.
Quote:
CORPSE CAMPING
KGB engages in corpse camping only as retaliation for camping KGB members or allies. The ranking officer at the scene must announce to the corpse, "KGB engages in corpse camping only as punishment for corpse camping our membership. You have assisted and or committed this offense against our Guild or allies, therefore you are being punished. Please log out".
The act of corpse camping is camping a dead player and killing them again and again when they clearly have no chance to defend themselves.
This is pretty typical, and understandable. I like that so far the rules are simple, and whether intended or not three rules make following ROE's easier to remember. Sticking with three ROE's, I would replace the last one, since it represents common practice, with something that goes into more detail about RPK activities unrelated to griefing. Griefing as it stands is simple to incorperate into ROE's by simply stating that "Any activity looked upon as Griefing will be met with equal force"
Basically ROEs usually refer to Seeing an Enemy, Being Attacked by an Enemy, Those harboring Enemies, Enemies locations and bases of operations, Enemies alliances and logistical operations, or enemy covert or unconventional movements or activities.
I hope I'm not being overly judgemental, or obsessive concerning this topic and if so I apologize.
Quote:
ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.
The phrase "no griefing" is a bit vague. To what extent do you mean griefing? The term griefing, per say, implies that one cannot instigate the fight at all, unless provoked in some way. Does this mean you'll only instigate fights versus known enemies? Or how about versus composed of rpk classes. I mean even though you may not know the names, you can kinda tell.
A bit of a technicality, but it may cause indecision. Putting the charge on the highest ranking officer will suffice. In some respects, AoC is all about being the agressor so, in some rare situtations, you may have to take actions that may be considered griefing.
Just bored, seems like a great discussion.
-Syloc Daggerfingers
Quote:
The phrase "no griefing" is a bit vague. To what extent do you mean griefing? The term griefing, per say, implies that one cannot instigate the fight at all, unless provoked in some way. Does this mean you'll only instigate fights versus known enemies? Or how about versus composed of rpk classes. I mean even though you may not know the names, you can kinda tell.
A bit of a technicality, but it may cause indecision. Putting the charge on the highest ranking officer will suffice. In some respects, AoC is all about being the agressor so, in some rare situtations, you may have to take actions that may be considered griefing.
Just bored, seems like a great discussion.
-Syloc Daggerfingers
Corpse camping is considered griefing, by definition griefing is doing something to someone repeatedly in which the game offers no way of dealing with individually short of logging out, reporting that individual to the CS dept, or calling on guild members to help you out.
Well technically, we're assuming that AoC has an ingame respawn outside of getting your corpse back. Not really corpse camping persay, because it prevents someone who would normally attack you, so it's really a preventive measure on your part.
I guess i've always thought of griefing as an uninstigated attack or action on another player for no other reason than to annoying/enrage the other person. Hence, he's being "griefed".
So retaliating by corpse camping back isn't technicaly corpse camping cause the point isn't to cause grief to the other person but rather to dissuade him from attacking your group.
Then again, i'm just picking at straws.
On the topic of attacking non-identified possible threats, I think it is warrented on a full loot server. While some mistakes will happen, saying sorry and giving the stuff back to a friend is much easier than trying to get back your loot from an enemy.
Good points Syloc, definately what I was trying to say...
Quote:
The phrase "no griefing" is a bit vague. To what extent do you mean griefing? The term griefing, per say, implies that one cannot instigate the fight at all, unless provoked in some way.
I would disagree with this. That's a very large blanket statement to put over on a term.
This is the way I see it. There are two sides of the coin; on one side, is the griefer. On the other, is the honor-abider. A warrior who lives by honor, can instigate a fight under the right circumstances... what those circumstances are, are what I believe the KGB are trying to find right now.
I don't think you'd ever see a group of KGBers rolling over a smaller group of lower level avatars, unless perhaps they were a guild that we despised because they use such 'grief' tactics such as that. I think we had such rules in place on the server that I first joined the KGB on, the DAoC PvP server, Andred. I believe it was a rule that we couldn't attack people below our level.. or am I mistaken?
I've always played PvP MMOs with the KGB because they play with honor. It's simply the kind of person I am, I don't care to play the griefer. And really, this is how it's always been. 'Anti-RPK' was just one way to play the 'honor' guild. Now, the KGB will need to find another way.
(Not that every RPK guild is a 'griefer' guild. Some of the best guilds out there are honorable RPKs, and those are the guilds the KGB always enjoy playing with. And with that, I suppose there would be 'anti-RPK griefer' guilds that exist, though I'm not sure how that would even work...)
JetStar, as far as what you've got so far, I would agree with everything except one. You say that the highest ranking member in the KGB group would decide if they will corpse loot. I disagree; I would suggest that a KGB group may not corpse camp unless an actual OFFICER is there, General or above. Otherwise, you'll get instances of a zealous High Knight camping when it wasn't appropriate, or when they are knowledgeable in certain aspects of the political scene that only officers would be.
Quote:
FRIENDS LIST
A FRIENDS list will be established and friends given access to the KGB ALLIES FORUM here at the Oracle. Both Federal and Faction governments would keep posted (Using the KGB Wiki) an accurate and updated list at all times. Anyone on the Friends list may NEVER be attacked without specific permission from the FACTION or FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Yah i see one big problem here. For some reason some of the guild's we allaince with have jackoffs in thier guild, who find it funny to attack and kill us.
From experaince you guys go talk to them, it does no good they come right back and do it again. Now i give you once because of the guild rule. But i think twice is asking a bit much, if they were really allies it wouldnt have happend a second time. He would have been delt with the first time and it made clear it wasnt acceptable.
There needs to be a rule in place to protect us from guilds who can not control thier members, or for us to deal with the members they can not handel.
I wonder if we'll see the crew from JDD this time around
Typically the way we've handled the ' loose cannons ' of a
friendly guild is to simply kill the player. Repeatedly, if
necessary, and let the other guilds membership know that if
Player X continues to be an ass while flying their flag,
they can either drop the player from the guild or risk the
entire guild going KOS for the actions of a few. *shrug*
This is going to be a tricky stance to maintain.
On the one hand we have a full loot wide open pvp system
to contend with. That alone is going to set up a shoot
first ask questions later mentality with EVERYONE on the
server. I think friendly / kos lists will be nice in
theory, but in reality if a crew shows up on track or is
spotted near a KGB levelling / pvp group then the fight
will likely be on. Be them friendly, KOS, or unknown.
On the other, we are KGB. As such, we have a reputation
to live up to. Which, unfortunately, does not mesh well
with the environment we will be playing in. Guess we'll
all have to roll a stealth capable character ! lol
The closest setup would have been under UO. Other than the
Red = Dead policy, can any of the rule sets from that era
be salvaged / tweaked for Conan ?
If errant members of friendly guilds are such a possible problem, couldn't you just have established rules with guilds at the onset of an alliance. Rules like, "We reserve the right to act against any alliance members that have been known to act against KgB?" Well not verbetum, but something along those lines.
Have to agree with the importance of reputation, in a full loot server, it would dictate a lot of what happens.
Quote:
Yah i see one big problem here. For some reason some of the guild's we allaince with have jackoffs in thier guild, who find it funny to attack and kill us.
From experaince you guys go talk to them, it does no good they come right back and do it again. Now i give you once because of the guild rule. But i think twice is asking a bit much, if they were really allies it wouldnt have happend a second time. He would have been delt with the first time and it made clear it wasnt acceptable.
There needs to be a rule in place to protect us from guilds who can not control thier members, or for us to deal with the members they can not handel.
It's simple; we just wouldn't be allies with those guilds. The KGB don't just friend up with anyone, and if a guild can't control their members, why be their ally?
Quote:
I would not say it is a heated debate concerning KGB ROE's, but they are in question concerning traditional KGB involvement in games these days. As I had pointed out, the old days of KGB defending the weak has long died out it seems, as was pointed out to me it stems from the idea that games these days are not made with the red vs blue mentality, thus the dilemma.
While I agree that the scope of the game has changed and that to survive KGB must also change and adapt or face destruction, I am always a sucker for tradition in a guild, to me it's what gives the guild it's identity and uniqueness which separates it from other more common guilds. Now I am not going to sit here and tell you guys how to run your guild or that my ideas are exactly what you should do, that would be presumptuous of me. Although I will say this, KGB to me is one of the oldest and strongest guilds built on the ideals of empowering their members, protecting those in need, with fair, honorable, and diplomatic play, with the overall intention of creating a free state.
To this end I have been looking over your documents and ranking structures, and what strikes me is that some policies and ranks that might help you in todays games you have over the years rewritten or done away with entirely.
Quote:
Today's KGB Marshals of Justice
The Marshals of Justice have a unique historic background in the Knights of Glory and Beer (See Original Definition). Today, Marshals serve a much different purpose:
Marshals of Justice are appointed by the High King, Prime Minister, or Chief of Staff to execute administrative processes, and perform critical functions to maintain guild resources. Marshal's report directly to the federal executive branch (HK, PM, COS) and do not possess the authority to act on their own. Marshals DO NOT hold rank or authority unless performing a direct order from the High King or executive branch member (HK, PM, COS). Here are their primary duties:
Maintain the Hall of Fame by fulfilling change requests and requested additions.
Review award requests and get approval from Faction Leader and the High King. Then post the award on the Oracle, KGB Sentinel, and HOF.
Assist with recruiting, posting of applications, and orientation of new members with the Faction leaders guidance and approval.
Post regular news stories on the KGB Sentinel.
Assist in the maintenance of the KGB Website.
Serve as an example to all members regarding conduct and duty.
Benefits:
All Marshals will serve on the KGB Senate and help steer the guild and its policies.
Moderator Status on the KGB Oracle.
Automatic full member to all Factions and Leadership Forums.
The following guidelines are for historical reference only. The information below does not apply to the current incarnation of the KGB MOJ's:
Historic Role of the KGB Marshals of Justice (disbanded after UO era)
A ministerial officer, appointed by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King of KGB, to execute the process of the courts, Laws, and Code of the KGB Constitution. These special officers will fall under the command of the Provost General of the Army (G5). As a KGB Marshal of Justice, these individuals have a "license to enforce KGB justice and to terminate potential enemies without question. A Marshal may use his discretion to determine is necessary to deal with complex problems of enforcement beyond the scope of the standard military. Marshals are only required to follow orders from the Provost General of the Army (G5), The Supreme Court, and the High King. KGB Marshals will wear the Guild title of Marshal of Justice at all times.
Conduct of a KGB Marshal
KGB Marshals are expected to adhere the KGB personal conduct at all time. A Marshal has special powers, and with these powers comes an extra responsibility to be an example to the Guild.
KGB Marshal Uniform
KGB Marshals will wear a black robe (The darkest color we can make on SP) with the red apron from the Paladin uniform. This uniform must be worn at all times as the Marshals dress uniform.
Appointment
Will be by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King
KGB marshals may only be appointed by the KGB Guild Master. After this appointment the marshal becomes a Marshal Elect and will be closely monitored until the High King approves the Marshal Elects appointment. KGB Marshals will hold the title of KGB Paladin when not deputized.
The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.
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Member of Armed Forces Conduct Code
All members of the KGB Armed Forces must obey their assigned commanding officer's orders without question.
All members must SALUTE any member of the Armed Forces (regardless of rank), any members of the Supreme Court, and or any Member of the Executive Branch.
Members have the right to report conduct of their superiors to the CIC without fear on reprisal AFTER a situation occurs. If you do not agree with your commander, you are still required to carry out his orders at that time, but may request a review.
General's will be referred to as GENERAL followed by their name when on active duty. Members that possess a military rank will be referred to as SIR followed by their name.
You will be placed on ACTIVE DUTY during emergencies and when your Commanding officer calls you to action. You may ask to be excused if extenuating circumstances arise.
All members will uphold the highest level of duty and responsibility. Members are dedicating to helping others and to uphold the laws of the KGB Constitution.
As stated before, you have the military performing the policing actions of the state, while this is not a impossibility, it does draw dedicated military force away from critical locations weakening your projection of force in those locations to pursue what might turn out to be low value targets in the end. It also requires your military to always be on stand by, unable to train and equip properly. This creates another logistics issue when you take into consideration that the military is a hammer not a scalpel. I understand that players will play, and that the military doesn't just stand around all day in formation waiting for a call, but if you call on them to perform the mundane and the common often, then it could become an issue to organize and commit to an action as they will most likely not be able to muster fast enough.
Without listing them, General Orders 1 and 3 respectively show that KGB could easily reinstate Marshals to do this job of finding and identifying possible threats to KGB, and in some cases handle the situation fully and/or report their findings and recommend appropriate actions. KGB has become a nation of laws and I find that while order is essential to the well being of a community it can at times create too much red tape as well. In my assessment the Marshals of old could cut through this red tape to better and more effectively serve the guild, they seemed to be more flexible and able to respond quicker to a arising situation then a bulky military presence could.
I would have to agree here
Prism
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ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.
In my humble opinion, what might be best served here is instead of instilling an highly aggressive attitude upon members since that is the general state all players will have already being that it's pvp, remind them more of being cautious, and warning those they come across that they are prepared to fight if given a reason to. Warnings ultimateums and demands can open up dialog which may avoid a problem altogether or learn information otherwise unknown. If ignored then I could understand a threat level increase and eventual hostilities. I'd hate to be attacked by KGB as I walk up to a group just because I am automatically considered a THREAT.
QFT. Being the aggressor right off against unknowns is NOT the KGB way. It will only take a few weeks before KGB should know the alignment of any guild on the server. There is no need to see everyone a threat from the start. This will only make us become very misunderstood as a guild.
Yeah, simply, I think it would be hard to tell exactly how the guild can work in such an environment, since it'll be a new experience.
But, hey, that's what the beta is for. That'll give a hint as to what you can expect.
Well, as you can imagine, I want to be prepared and ahead of the game when beta starts, hence the reasons for these discussions.
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The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.
I have been thinking lots about this also. Perhaps instead of diplomats, I reinstate the KGB Marshall program of old. I am writing something over the holidays, and will post on this.
Thanks for the idea Drak.
Glad to that for once in my lifetime I was able to contribute in a positive way.
One thing that's been nagging at me is guild participation on the epic level. What I mean is guilds these days seem to be soft on their membership, and what responsibilities those members have to the guild quite often times gets overlooked. If the guild is giving you a place to talk (Vent or TS), providing a website, forums, fellowship/friendships, interesting debates, news gaming or otherwise, awards, respect, titles, and reputation then how are you going to repay that as a member? Remember just because a person might have joined when the guild was in some other crappy game doesn't mean his or her responsibilities to the guild ended there. Quite often times players get too comfortable once they have been accepted, and start going against the grain and doing their own thing. This isn't as much of a problem when times are tough, and there isn't anything worth playing, that's understandable. Although when a game does finally hit will the same people be ready to serve? Would they sacrifice what they are currently into to go off and play a game they know nothing about because the guild needs them? Would you let go of your gaming happiness to join KGB out of responsibility to the guild in a game you may or may not like? This is a fundimental question before every gamer, and each must answer it honestly and be prepared to take a back seat if they cant.
I hear it already, this is not a military, or hey this is supposed to be fun etc etc. But realistically this IS a military in concept, and functionally a guild should work with one mind, one purpose. Factions are all well and good but Jet you know that a significant presence is required of any game let alone AoC. The soft bleeding heart approach to guild organization often times fails and has repercussions on the entire guild and it's reputation.
I realize that game requirements are hard on some, others don't have the time requirements of a new game, and still others might find the game not to their liking. I count myself amoung some of those so before anyone freaks out I totally sympathize with you, but keep in mind its a guild wide effort that counts in any game. Certain games might require more of a tough love approach mandating a royal decree of full participation or a probationary staus change.
It takes an entire guild to be winners, the only thing I learned from shadowbane was either your in full or you might as well pack your bags because dead weight doesn't help your guild in the long run. I was most certainly, at the time, considered dead weight but I could see my mates winning because I wasn't draining any resources outside of the game by conducting distracting personal agendas.
I guess plainly put overwhelming numbers, massive support and logistics, good intel, a powerful army, awesome organization, and highly specialized individuals is what will be needed to succeed. This will require the bulk of the guild with a highly motivated, dedicated, and responsible attitude. Are all your guild members ready to enter a game together as one nation for one purpose or are you going to keep kicking around UO and Vanguard? I could definately see waiting to see how well any of the next gen games that come out handle before making any guild wide changes or general orders. There is pleanty of time without a doubt.
I know it was preachy, sorry guys, I also know its a tad mean.
Things are coming along ok so far. I have 33 of us already signed on, and I expect to open with between 50 and 100.
As more and more members check back, I think more interest will be shown.
I agree with your post, although its hard from me to understand from the top. I just do what I do, and hope that everyone will do the same. So far for the last 10 years, this has worked out pretty well.
Revol alot has changed since you've disappeared. I would suggest catching up on the Constitution as that has changed and there are alot of things that are different. Mmo life is not so cut and dry as it was in the past
I really like the idea of bringing back the Marshall system - It worked well in the past if memory serves. I think sometimes our ranks seem to be a little officer heavy and that leads to "high ranking" individuals acting poorly at times. With the advent of a new age in our gaming history, it may be time to look at clearing the board so to speak at least in regards to this game and making sure our middle managers really represent KGB and totally agree with and are committed to following orders from above.
I have also seen no talk about crafting or setting up a seperate chain of command to deal with supply and demand issues. Just wondering what people had in mind as far as that goes.
I am VERY encouraged by all the discussion so far!
=0)