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Sini #141553 09/05/17 01:01 PM
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[yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes]
Originally Posted by Sini
Social Justice and their form of divisive relativism is the poison that will kill our society. You can't substitute reverse anything for actual problem solving. 27th century historians, studying the fall of American Empire, will conclude "they just gave up" and brought on dark ages. Actual cataclysm that would make the fall would be inconsequential.

[yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes] [yes]


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Sini #141554 09/05/17 02:44 PM
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To demonstrate that good-faith argument on both sides are possible, and that shaming and emotional circle-jerk is optional, I am offering to Derid to assume 'pro removal' side of argument.


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Sini #141556 09/06/17 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Sini
To demonstrate that good-faith argument on both sides are possible, and that shaming and emotional circle-jerk is optional, I am offering to Derid to assume 'pro removal' side of argument.


The statues should come down because the symbolism presented in public places, by and on behalf of the government, ought be representative of the entire constituency served by that government. Although the historical significance is noted, it is also apparent that the statues represent a mentality and history that is diametrically opposed to the best interests of a good portion of our citizenry. Where those statues of Confederate leaders in particular reside on public grounds, particularly courthouses and other government buildings, it is understandable where a good portion of the citizenry receives a message, intended or not, that the proceedings in said buildings reflect the will of a culture that is unfavorable to them and thereby lose trust in said institutions. As trust that our institutions reflect justice served in the interest of the whole society overrides other considerations, the statues ought be removed to send a signal that the mindset of the Confederacy is in the forgotten past.

---

At first I read that as "I am offering Derid to assume" and missed the preceding "to" but meh its w/e.

I could also offer an argument that remembering the past is important because it serves as both a benchmark for the progress we've gained, and a reminder that no matter the situation today, recidivism is always possible if not actively strived against. Also, the respect for the dead and of history itself. Conversely in such an argument I would suggest adding more statues to reflect the current social paradigm and values, and show the march of history as it has happened. Even if the Robert E Lee statue stands, there is no reason not to erect a MLK statue across the courtyard. Then in another 60 years, hopefully add another. That way in 1000 years when the ruins of our cities are unearthed from the ashes of global war, or discovered on the bottom of an ocean that rose 50 feet, or our robot overlords are finally defeated by the returning colonists we put into space, future historians will have even better context to work with as far as reconstructing our social trajectory - even if nuclear EMPs, solar flares, and time have damaged or eliminated most of the digital records of the era.

Criticizing the SJW/antifa left was in fact my impetus for typing on the issue, I'm pretty agnostic as far as the actual statues go. As most people who know me should understand, I don't tend to believe that ends justify means - and the means adopted by certain segments of our society are rather unpleasant. I also find them hypocritical for injecting themselves into a relatively minor local issue to oppose the tacit support of statues by Trump, while ignoring major national issues with actual, hard, racial implications that are being actively pushed into policy by the Trump administration. To me this makes zero logical sense, unless the actual goal is simply to feel good about yourself for "denouncing racism". Of course pointing this out makes you a sympathizer for white supremacists in their eyes.

What a world we live in.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141557 09/06/17 04:50 PM
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Another good-faith argument is based on values. We all, hopefully, agree that on balance supremacist values are contemptible. The protesters mainly oppose supremacists, removal of statues is just a battle field that happen to be selected by supremacists. The end goal of protesters isn't to remove statues, but to oppose supremacists. It is these supremacists who happened to make these historical statues a battleground and issue today, therefore it isn't historical context but today's context that should matter. Unmistakably, today's context is largely defined by supremacists and their values unmistakably make it racist.

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However, going full retard and calling Derid a racists provides for better entertainment value.


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Sini #141573 09/07/17 08:28 PM
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Well, enjoy your debate club then. Out in the real world, people are being killed for the color of their skin, and the wistful and hollow appeals to history your impeccable logic has brought you to is propping it up. Frankly I discontinued sparring on your level because you still have yet to realize this fact.

I understand your objections about SJWs and identity politics, I am less likely to support social arguments based wholly on that than your average "coastal liberal," but again a line must be drawn somewhere and I'm drawing it at fucking nazis.


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rhaikh #141582 09/08/17 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Well, enjoy your debate club then. Out in the real world, people are being killed for the color of their skin, and the wistful and hollow appeals to history your impeccable logic has brought you to is propping it up. Frankly I discontinued sparri[b][/b]ng on your level because you still have yet to realize this fact.


No, I am arguing that my methods and priorities are superior to yours towards combatting that.

Probably at least a third of my posts here if not more relate directly or indirectly to policies that do in fact target, or disproportionately affect minority communities. I don't think anyone here has been more critical of Jeff Sessions or his prerogatives then myself, as one example.

Why would you rather focus on a handful of wingnuts, while demonizing people who give a shit about real issues? Focusing on the wingnuts just gives them power. They want to get mass media attention, and fill up the airwaves with their bullshit. Totally powerless in of themselves, they are given power and airtime by the very people who ostensibly oppose them. In my view, you are the one giving the Nazis what they want.

If you genuinely feel that Jeff Sessions and his implementing of racially disproportionate policies from his seat as head of the DOJ should take a back seat to a couple dozen fast food workers with tiki torches, and that people who don't focus on the latter are the real problem, then so be it. But, trying to falsely associate those of us who care more about the former with the idiocy of the latter, probably isn't going to sway many people towards your point of view.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141583 09/08/17 05:35 PM
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rhaikh, let do another hypothetical. As a supremacist, what is the best way to achieve supremacist's goals? Think this through, now afterwards ask yourself - are my actions playing into this? So far, I think they are.

Say my goal is to re-implement some version of Crow. No politician will go for it outright now matter how sympathetic they might be. They will take donations, dog whistle, but do absolutely nothing of the sort. At most, they will be able to do more 'tough on crime' and 'war on drugs' that criminalizes black population. However, that won't get me all the way to Crow and it is expensive as incarcerating cost a lot of money.
Instead, I need to get people scared of black people so there is a call for action. That action then could provide a cover to move toward Crow. How to get people scared? Provoke more violent protests, ideally with looting at shooting at the cops, from the likes of BLM and ANTIFA.

Civil rights movement worked because it was predominantly non-violent. Most people don't care about racism or anti racism, they just want to go on with their lives. You disrupt their lives and they just react by turning to whomever sells simplest solution loudest. This is how Trump got elected. This is how Mussolini got elected.


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Sini #141599 09/10/17 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Derid
Why would you rather


false dichotomy

Originally Posted by Sini
rhaikh, let do another hypothetical.


ignoring the argument


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Sini #141600 09/10/17 04:10 PM
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So I asked Owain, it is only fair I ask you. Where is your red line on this issue? You are perfectly fine with being ineffective and polarizing. What about property destruction? What about violence? What about modifying First Amendment to make it inapplicable in some clear cases of racist speech?


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rhaikh #141606 09/11/17 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Derid
Why would you rather


false dichotomy

Originally Posted by Sini
rhaikh, let do another hypothetical.


ignoring the argument


That one has to care about either/or might be a false dichotomy - the issue here is you have clearly expressed a hard preference and projected two "sides" onto others, where those who don't share your views and prerogatives are immediately labeled and shamed as being white supremacists or sympathizers. I'm simply speaking to your own behavior, using your own framework.

As far as your claims of ignoring the argument, it seems that the problem here is that you haven't really made an argument - but rather, have instead made assertions that seem to stem from faith in your own position. If there is sound reasoning or an argument present, you have yet to share.

LifeProTip: "If you don't agree with me, you're a Nazi" is an assertion, not an argument.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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