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Goriom #140275 04/16/17 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Goriom
How is that an ad hominem?


I didn't see anything that could be interpreted as a personal attack. For this to be true, it should have read something like: "Only an idiot would consider this blog to be credible". Maybe post was edited, but as it stands by the time I read it, nothing of the kind was there.

Also, I agree that random blogs are not inherently more credible than simply stating opinion yourself. In this, I don't find Owain arguments on this subject credible.


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Owain #140276 04/16/17 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Owain
If you misrepresent a case to the FISA court for a warrant for surveillance for national security purposes when you are actually conducting surviellance for political puposes, that is a felony offense.


Sure, IF . Do you have any evidence that Obama directed to misrepresent such case with the goal to wiretap Trump for political purposes?

Listen, I am all for throwing Obama into jail if any of this turns to be true. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. In this case there is not even indications of wrongdoing. Nothing that would even allow Trump to gracefully walk back his claims. However, you treating this as a given. That is, you are not justified in your views. It is not even a question of different interpretation, there is just no supporting evidence to back any of this.

Even if you actually read the linked blog. It is one unending string of hypotheticals (do a word count on "may"). At some point you seem to forgot that "I bought a lottery ticket and may win a jackpot" and "I bought a lottery ticked and won a jackpot" are two different statements with drastically different meaning.


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Sini #140277 04/16/17 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Owain
If you misrepresent a case to the FISA court for a warrant for surveillance for national security purposes when you are actually conducting surviellance for political puposes, that is a felony offense.


Sure, IF . Do you have any evidence that Obama directed to misrepresent such case with the goal to wiretap Trump for political purposes?

That's not my job, but based upon news reports, mostly from the foreign press since the domestic media is curiously uninterested, I think it is highly likely.

I am content to allow the investigation to continue. If evidence exists incriminating members of the Obama administration, or even Obama himself, evidence can be produced in open court (or closed if the evidence is classified) by Justice Department prosecutors, whose job it is to present evidence obtained by government investigators.

If evidence does not exist, I will be relieved, but I don't think that is the likely outcome.


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Owain #140278 04/16/17 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Owain

That's not my job...

It is your job to present justified opinions. You come across as "Trump was right, Obama did it, here is smoking gun". It is one thing to state opinions (e.g. Obama was a lousy president), it is entirely different when you support evidence-free accusations (e.g. Obama is a criminal, here is proof).

For example, I think Bush was lousy president and Iraq war was unmitigated disaster. I don't think he knew otherwise when he stated Saddam had WMDs. That is, it wasn't malicious lie on his part.



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Sini #140279 04/16/17 11:53 AM
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Sini, it is foolish to request evidence from a private individual, since no individual has the investigative assets necessary to provide evidence. I could just as easily demand evidence of you to prove Obama's innocence, but I am not foolish.

The best one can do is provide arguments to support why one holds an opinion. I think I have done that already.

So, in the future, let's dispense with foolishness, M'kay?

Last edited by Owain; 04/16/17 11:55 AM.

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Sini #140280 04/16/17 12:00 PM
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Owain, you engaged in faulty thinking and got called on it. Asking someone why they believe something, and then demonstrating that it doesn't make sense is well within the norms of political discourse. Technically, this is called epistemic justification. I don't expect you to personally produce evidence, but I do expect you to cite credible sources that actually present such evidence. You mentioned that you read "mostly from the foreign press", I am not aware of any such publications that would show any such evidence. Care to link it here?


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Sini #140282 04/16/17 02:15 PM
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Then, oh faulty thinker, I demand that you provide evidence of Obama's innocence, or barring that, evidence of Trumps collusion with the Russians.

Chop chop.

If you follow the link I already provided, you will see that he already linked articles from the foreign press. Rather than link them individually, I linked that, since he provides a good summary.


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Sini #140283 04/16/17 06:02 PM
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If you are asserting that something is happening, the burden of proof is on you.

I simply have to point out there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by Obama despite numerous inquiries to justify my position.


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Owain #140284 04/16/17 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Owain
If you follow the link I already provided, you will see that he already linked articles from the foreign press.


I have followed the link you provided and did not see any evidence, linked or otherwise, of Obama ordering wiretapping of Trump. Since you insist it is out there, why don't you link it directly?


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Sini #140285 04/16/17 06:23 PM
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I did not say that there was 'evidence'. I said that based upon what I have read, mostly in the foreign press, that I think it is highly likely [that Trump was wiretapped]. That might have been ordered by the Obama himself, or by someone in his administration. That might have been directly or indirectly, but I think it's still highly likely. As I also said, I am content to allow the investigation to take its course.

In the meantime, where is your evidence, slacker?


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