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+1 to what Kaotic said about misusing quotes being the fault/issue of the quoter, not the quotee.

Sinij, its true you do seem to come across as arrogant. It doesnt bother me, even though I will needle you a bit over it from time to time simply because its fun. Its all part of the game. I am probably at *least* as arrogant, though I usually try not to show it so much. So I really dont have room to throw stones in that regard.

As far as saying that "you cant escape your *side* " - that point you like to bring up. What we have here is I think a fundamental difference in the way people think. Lots of us genuinely do not see ourselves as part of that, or even any "group". You can say we are , or argue we arent - that aspect is moot in this case. The point is that is not how we *think*. We are individuals first and foremost,at least in our own minds, and judging us by the lowest common denominator of people who in some cases share similar views on certain things does not sit well with us, as a matter of basic psychology. Just like we dont like being treated that way by govt.

It is quite possibly something that not everyone can truly internalize, if they arent wired that way.

Interestingly enough, I had a political science prof who actually identified and wrote published material examining this phenominae. His angle, was focused mostly on white men, particularly suburban and semi-rural white Anglo men who were the one of if not the only groups... that did not think of themselves as a group. Latinos, Blacks, immigrants, etc.. all identify with a greater group that they are part of. Not so with white Anglo men.

A whole group of people, that were identified as a group by the fact that they - as a group - did not self identify with a group.

Of course as a very liberal political science prof... his tendency was to view this as a broken mechanism where the "majority" was self deceptive, and other aspects where he considered it a flawed viewpoint.

I still remember the look on his face though, when I pointed out that this particular trait has been most prominent in the very group that has literally gained and wielded the vast majority of wealth and power in the world. So I obviously question the validity of considering it a flawed trait. In fact I consider collective group consciousness a serious weakness, societies that as a whole fit or fall into that pattern ossify and lose their social, and by extension, economic adaptability.

Groups that do not identify with a group simply via fait accompli , but rather make conscious choices to identify with a group when the need presents itself to do so (such as join military in time of war) seem to be much more effective - at least in terms of structuring the social order.

But thats a tangent for another thread.

I do think judging via groups is mental lazyness. Sometimes when running a macro analysis, you have no choice of course- but on a personal level I have always considered it bad mojo. Not because I am doing a disservice to the other person, but rather because I am obviously going to be prejudicing my own perceptions and dealing in false reality.



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In regards to central planning, and communism:

This is how you tell a knowledgeable conservative from a less knowledgeable one.

Less knowledgeable conservatives consider communism more of an amorphous bogeyman, and aspects like central planning are bad because they are affiliated with communism.

More knowledgeable conservatives, dislike communism because it represents an extremely high degree of central planning. Central economic and social planning being the undesirable traits.. and communism being bad because it embraces said traits.

Its a subtle but important distinction.


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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Oh for fuck's sake this is ridiculous. Obama had two whole fucking years with a super majority in congress to get done whatever he thought would fix the economy and he failed. All he managed to do was force through Obamacare. So, you don't get to blame republicans in congress now for shit he didn't do in TWO WHOLE YEARS.


Yeah, got lots done, like avoiding the second great depression. Cant undo 8 years of disaster in 2 years. I am just hoping it can be done in 8.

I cant believe you people would actually support Romney despite the fuck up after fuck up, and this is just the campaign. Maybe we will get lucky and he will install windows he can roll down in his plane like he suggested, and then roll one down at 30,000 feet.



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TARP was Bushes bright idea, and as opposed to preventing another great depression - it made the current recession slightly less acute, lengthened it, and guaranteed we actually do get another great depression.

All Obama has really done, is find new ways to jail people, find new ways to hand out cash to the oligarchy, and finish what Nixon started in regards to fucking up our health care system beyond all possibility of ever fixing and find new ways to weaken our constitutional protections against abusive govt.


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Originally Posted By: Derid

I still remember the look on his face though, when I pointed out that this particular trait has been most prominent in the very group that has literally gained and wielded the vast majority of wealth and power in the world. So I obviously question the validity of considering it a flawed trait. In fact I consider collective group consciousness a serious weakness, societies that as a whole fit or fall into that pattern ossify and lose their social, and by extension, economic adaptability.


I tend to agree with your professor, but not 100%. If I wanted to argue his side (and I don't) I'd start by examining white privilege and then use kyriarchy to explain that "in power" is group identity shared by these people.


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Well, its such a broad topic really - so many facts are available you can fit any number of theories into them.


In historical context, I think the phenomena goes beyond modern white privilege. I think the important point is identifying which traits were instrumental in gaining power, and which come as a result of gaining power. Though certainly some traits are self-reinforcing.

As a side note, Fiorenzas kyriarchy is interesting - the concept had been in discussion and play when I was in school- of interconnecting social structures , however the word itself wasnt used.


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Originally Posted By: JetStar
I cant believe you people would actually support Romney despite the fuck up after fuck up, and this is just the campaign. Maybe we will get lucky and he will install windows he can roll down in his plane like he suggested, and then roll one down at 30,000 feet.


I cant believe Jet you support a man that has authorized Americans to be killed with out due process. I cant belive jet you support a man that waited 30 days on sending in more tropps to afganastan when he ran on the ticket that it was the just war and we need more support thier. I cant belive Jet you support a man that has helped raised the cost of food thru the roof so that people cant even afford to feed thier familys. I cant belive Jet you support a man that has done nothing to restrict the feds from using drones over American air space. I cant believe Jet you support a man that has taken 500 Million from medicare. I cant believe you support a man that has no clue what he is doing, and is a puppet for both Ried and Pelosi.

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Well i am not going to spend the time to refute all your claims (I am to busy watching "Snakes on a Plane", but lets focus on Medicare cause it is fresh in my mind:

A conservative friend sent me this.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/a-campaign-full-of-mediscare/

Oh and I support the 47% that Romney just pissed on.


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Oh a couple more:

Obama prevented a second Great Depression, saved GM, and has helped create 4.5 million private sector jobs
Obama has strengthened our alliances abroad with key allies and hasn't gotten us into any new wars
Obama appointed Sonia Sotomayor and Elana Kagan to the Supreme Court
Obama signed the Fair Pay Act to combat workplace discrimination against women
Obama is pro-choice; Romney wants to cut off funding to Planned Parenthood
ObamaCare ends higher insurance rates for women; ensures that birth control is covered
ObamaCare made sure Medicare is fully funded for eight additional years
Romney believes people on fixed incomes who pay no federal income tax are moochers with no ambition
Ryan supported efforts to privatize Social Security
Obama would make college more affordable; Romney will increase student debt
Obama ended Don't Ask Don't Tell; supports gay marriage
Obama has decimated Al Qaeda, killed Bin Laden, brought troops home from Iraq
ObamaCare lets you stay on your parents' health care until you are 26


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I am part of the 47%, and he insulted people that were not going to vote for him anyway, and those that were not insulted dont care, they been called many worse things by far poorer people.

The left is running with this couse they dont want to talk about the economy, talk about 43 weeks above 8.3% unemployment, talk about the bailouts and qe3 raising the price of food, they dont want to talk how they ignored a diplomat saying that his life was in danger.

But a guy tells folks how he feels and he is the bad person. Give me a break, Obama has only done what others have told him todo. Obama has no knowledge of the military, no knowledge of the econamy, lacks leadership in dealing with Syria, lacks leadership on Isreal, and shows no backbone with Iran.

So you are ok with a POTUS killing Americans with out due process? Then what is to stop the next one or the one after that, that feels anyone from the left or the right is a threat? Every single home in Amereica has a gps location on it, sitting in a database somewhere. And that dont scare the hell out of you?

Vets were singled out as being possible terriorts and that dont piss you off?


Obama is a speaker, he can smooth talk himself into any pair of panties anywhere. He makes people feel like he cares about them, but then turns around at his own fundraisers and say that people dont like him couse they are scared that he is a blackman, bullshit, it still took over 50% of the white vote for him to get elected. But damn he throws that race card fast, not couse he belives it but becouse he knows it will divide people.

Honestly Jet, I cant see why you support him, but that is your choice. However dont shit on people that are wanting to try the next guy couse they lost faith with the person in there.

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