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The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central JetStar = Mitt (for flip flopping, not voting for)

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Re: JetStar = Mitt Helemoto #98330 02/09/12 11:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Originally Posted By: Helemoto Replace abortion with gun rights and your own argument says you have no right to talk about personal freedoms. Never mind this blatant attempt at derail and change topic, I am going to quote this so you can't get out of stating it later. You just equated gun ownership to control over person's own body. You understand that one thing you buy in a store, and another thing you are born with as-is, right?

Re: JetStar = Mitt Helemoto #98331 02/09/12 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Quote: BTW being against abortion doesn't mean you are part of a religion. You can believe that when a woman is knocked up there is a baby in her belly and killing it is murder. You said "you can believe", and you are very entitled to your flying spaghetti monster faith and I am not going to question it unless you start trying to force it on others. Until you can say medical community agrees the best outcome for the patient is, or overwhelming scientific consensus is, or greater societal benefit arises from is, it will still a faith-based belief. As to "baby in the belly" is part of your belief, again not supported by anything other than your faith. Last edited by sinij; 02/09/12 11:21 AM.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Derid #98332 02/09/12 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Originally Posted By: Derid See thats the thing, I have always been pro-choice. Then I really don't understand you. Lets go step by step. 1. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly anti-abortion? 2. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly of Christian faith? 3. Do you agree that Ron Paul is anti-abortion stance is based on Christian faith? 4. Do you agree that Ron Paul acted via legislature and voting on his anti-abortion stance? 5. Do you agree that control over your own body is a fundamental right? 6. Do you agree that women should have control over their bodies? 7. Do you agree that denying any right to any specific group of people would be considered anti-this-group stance? Please respond with yes or no.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Sini #98333 02/09/12 11:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Quote: Its not about abortion. Its about spending. No, just no. I can't say I want to remove police protection from people of color and then claim it is about spending and not bigotry. It just doesn't work that way.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Sini #98334 02/09/12 11:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6 Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court
Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6	Originally Posted By: sinij Quote: Its not about abortion. Its about spending. No, just no. I can't say I want to remove police protection from people of color and then claim it is about spending and not bigotry. It just doesn't work that way. That is probably the most fail example I have ever seen. The analogy does not even begin to work. Just because someone should have the right to do something, does not mean that they should have the right to have govt use other peoples money to pay for them to do it. I see where you are coming from - if you believe that anyone should have the right to anything medical related, and other people should be required to pay for it - then it stands to reason that you would say denial of funding for something it an abrogation of those rights. However, I absolutely do not think medical funding for any person or procedure is a right. Therefore my opposition to using tax dollars for this particular procedure, has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry. And that IS how it works. For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)

Re: JetStar = Mitt Sini #98335 02/09/12 11:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6 Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court
Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6	Originally Posted By: sinij Originally Posted By: Derid See thats the thing, I have always been pro-choice. Then I really don't understand you. Lets go step by step. 1. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly anti-abortion? Yes, but he believes it is Constitutionally mandated to be regulated/decided at the State level. 2. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly of Christian faith? Yes. 3. Do you agree that Ron Paul is anti-abortion stance is based on Christian faith? No. His abortion stance actually comes from an experience he had as a medical intern when an aborted fetus was gasping for air and trying to breathe/cry in a trash can. It had an effect on him. 4. Do you agree that Ron Paul acted via legislature and voting on his anti-abortion stance? No, he acted on his financial/constitutional principles regarding spending of taxpayer money. 5. Do you agree that control over your own body is a fundamental right? yes 6. Do you agree that women should have control over their bodies? yes 7. Do you agree that denying any right to any specific group of people would be considered anti-this-group stance? yes, however I also acknowledge the validity of the stance that if people think that a fetus is actually a person - that the unborn persons rights can be validly defended. Generally speaking, I am for first trimester abortions, against third trimester abortions - because a fetus can live outside of a womb at that point... and think second trimester abortions are a grey area.. I am not for banning them, but I would generally encourage anyone I knew who was contemplating an abortion to get it done as soon as possible. Please respond with yes or no. For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)

Re: JetStar = Mitt Sini #98340 02/09/12 12:30 PM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 3,716 Lafayette, LA Kaotic KGB Supreme Knight King's High Council
Kaotic KGB Supreme Knight King's High Council Joined: May 2008 Posts: 3,716 Lafayette, LA	Originally Posted By: sinij You are aware of supreme court decision, you are aware of freedoms granted to women under constitution as interpreted by supreme court, yet you would like to make it technically impossible to exercise these freedom based on religious or moral grounds by superseding legal and legislative process. Case closed. You no longer have a leg to stand on in any argument where you would cite personal freedoms. Way to completely ignore what I wrote and cherry pick the part that you wanted to comment on. I thought you said only us conservative leaning folks did that. Originally Posted By: Sinji Imaginary voice in the sky tells me you should eat only broccoli. I will ignore your rights and make sure that you could only ever find broccoli. What you believe should never supersede other people's rights. Coincidentally, what you believe happens to be misogyny. Why is this misogyny, because you are trying to dictate how women should go living their lives. I don't base my ideas about when life begins on religion (you're the one who keeps harping on religion. did someone hurt your feelings once?) I base it on science. You base your opinion about when life begins on what someone else told you science says. How about you spend some time doing your own research, study the results, create a hypothesis, test your hypothesis, test it again, and again and again, and then draw a conclusion. Once you've learned how to use the scientific method rather than spew back the detritus you've consumed then perhaps you and I can have a discussion.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Kaotic #98349 02/09/12 01:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Originally Posted By: Kaotic Originally Posted By: sinij You are aware of supreme court decision, you are aware of freedoms granted to women under constitution as interpreted by supreme court, yet you would like to make it technically impossible to exercise these freedom based on religious or moral grounds by superseding legal and legislative process. Case closed. You no longer have a leg to stand on in any argument where you would cite personal freedoms. Way to completely ignore what I wrote. What part of "I would like to make it impossible to operate an abortion clinic. -Kaotic" did I misunderstood? Quote: I don't base my ideas about when life begins on religion I base it on science. When your are talking "life begins" in scientific terms you are talking about life, as in gut bacteria is life, so is flu virus is life, and dust mites are also life. Why is this scientifically defined life is precious, and how can we possibly protect it when there is so much of it around us? No, what you are talking about, but too uninformed to know the difference, is when sentience of the human fetus begins. This is meaningful discussion, but it isn't one that favors your side. My suggestion - stick to faith arguments, at least you can't be critiqued for being ignorant that way.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Derid #98352 02/09/12 02:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10 Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council
Sini KGB Supreme Court Justice KGB Paladin King's High Council Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,528 Likes: 10	Originally Posted By: Derid 1. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly anti-abortion? Yes. 2. Do you agree that Ron Paul is clearly of Christian faith? Yes. 3. Do you agree that Ron Paul is anti-abortion stance is based on Christian faith? No. 4. Do you agree that Ron Paul acted via legislature and voting on his anti-abortion stance? No. 5. Do you agree that control over your own body is a fundamental right? Yes. 6. Do you agree that women should have control over their bodies? Yes. 7. Do you agree that denying any right to any specific group of people would be considered anti-this-group stance? Yes. Generally speaking, I am for first trimester abortions, against third trimester abortions - because a fetus can live outside of a womb at that point... and think second trimester abortions are a grey area.. I am not for banning them, but I would generally encourage anyone I knew who was contemplating an abortion to get it done as soon as possible. In that case, surprisingly, we only disagree on 3. and 4. While I was aware of Ron Paul abortion story, I see it more as a justification and make-believe story to protect his present faith-based believes from ridicule. While it is not impossible it would be unlikely to happen. First, there is no public record whatsoever of him participating in something like that. Second, late-term abortion would have been illegal at a time. Third, this story did not surface until fairly well into his political career. Another issue, even if one to accept this story, it is inconsistent with his complete anti-abortion stance. Ron Paul is 100% anti-abortion, at any stage of this process, save early abortion in cases of rape and incest (and I think that it, but feel free to correct me Derid). His personal experiences are with late-stage abortions, and he doesn't mention reasoning for abortion in his story (maybe it was to save mother's life?). So I am highly skeptical of his unverified, inconsistent and convoluted justification story, it is much likely that simplest explanation is true - that Ron Paul's faith is responsible for his stance. 4. I don't see how you can see spending as sufficient justification. It still unfairly targets a group - women, and it still in many cases tries to bypass existing laws and functionally (not legislatively) outlaw abortion. Correct procedure would be constitutional amendment, but this is not how Ron Paul is approaching this issue.

Re: JetStar = Mitt Sini #98359 02/09/12 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 3,716 Lafayette, LA Kaotic KGB Supreme Knight King's High Council
Kaotic KGB Supreme Knight King's High Council Joined: May 2008 Posts: 3,716 Lafayette, LA	Originally Posted By: sinij What part of "I would like to make it impossible to operate an abortion clinic. -Kaotic" did I misunderstood? The part right after that where I stated that this is not the issue at hand. I only included the first sentence in the interest of full disclosure. Originally Posted By: Sinji No, what you are talking about, but too uninformed to know the difference, is when sentience of the human fetus begins. This is meaningful discussion, but it isn't one that favors your side. My suggestion - stick to faith arguments, at least you can't be critiqued for being ignorant that way. Your argument is invalid because we only place value on human life (unless you're a PETA whack-a-doodle). Sentience only comes into play when the folks on your side are trying to make their arguments for killing children all the way up to 2 years after birth. If a woman could get pregnant all on her own I might be inclined to agree with the "its a woman's body" argument. The fact that it takes two people to create life, and that the child growing in her womb is 1/2 her and 1/2 the man nullifies that argument for me. Thank you again for accusing me of being too dim witted to hold up my own side of a debate with you, the enlightened elite. I thought it was always "us" who were being irrational and calling names, yet I keep seeing you do it. Again, let me congratulate you for trying to misdirect readers into believing that my views have anything to do with religion. I don't think you can find anything on here were I commented on my personal belief system, as far as the giant space octopus is concerned.

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