The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub For those who value freedom...

Some of what you say I actually agree with Helemoto.

The biggest misconception about me on these forums among some viewers, is that I am a leftist because I think the country is in a dangerous spot at the moment. Or that I am a Democrat, when in fact I am neither.

But I really urge you to take a closer look at what is going on. My ranting is NOT anti-american ranting, quite the opposite. The so called Neo-cons are the anti-american ones here. Them and their leftist, socialist counterparts who disagree on some things publically, but work together privately for greater power over the lives and fates of ordinary americans.

Stop and think why America is regarded as great, and it doesnt have much to do with soil. It has to do with our system, and our people, and the fact that in the past we were willing to suffer hardship and uncertainty to preserve and maintain liberty.

Those who attempt to break our system, and subvert our liberty are not being pro-american. They just manage to convince some people they are because they shout the loudest about how evil the "bad guys" are. Just because the "bad guys" are evil, doesnt mean that we should listen to the demogogues who claim we all need to fall into line and give up our national identity, civil rights, and future.

Just a thought about the guantanamo prisonners situation and some of your argument.
If a not-US army, let say spanish, take some hundreds american activists and put them in a jail :
- these activists are not soldiers and don't wear uniform.
- they are not spanish.

So, following your idea, these american people should be kept and tortured cause they don't have any right ?

I do look at what is going on on a daily basis. I am just not as good as stating my opinions as you and some others I tend to speak with bricks as you speak with quilted pens.

And America is great for the reasons you state but for so many more that can come out of your comment.

I also hate all the new ways to put people in groups like neo-cons.

Just look at history the same arguments have been going on for along time. Yes some new ones have come up but most are the same. Every president has been called the same thing over and over. But I am not going to listen to one side that blast away with half truths and outright lies. I look in between the lines.
I hear on one side how my life was better off with thier president but in truth no matter who has been in office my life has been getting better with each passing year.

I will now share a qoute from Thomas Jefferson
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free,in a state of civilization it expects what never was and never will be"

I found in my advance age that there are more stupid people in this country then I have ever expected could be in such a small area of the world.
Most people lock onto one side and stay there till they die. My question of why do dems and reps never agree on anything has alot to do with this. They know by keeping these people fighting each other will keep their partys alive and not give much chance to a 3rd or 4th party from getting power.

Breaking this cycle I think is the most important thing this country should do to save itself.

One last qoute. I love qoutes but they do come from the old guys.

"I am resolved to rise with the sun and to study the Scriptures on thrusday, friday, Saturday, and Sunday mornings. Noons and nights I intend to read english authors....I will rouse up my mind and fix my attention. I will stand collected within myself and think upon what I read and what I see. I will strive with all my soul to be something more then persons who have had less advantages than myself."
John Adams at the age of 20
John Adams was born into a poor farm family, and was in Harvard at the age of 15. So this proves that all young people are not stupid. So get off your asses and think for yourselfs.

Helemoto, I agree 100% that we need to break the tradition of 2 powerful parties, and that there is hardly anything more important than that when it comes to presidential elections. I'd like to see it happen, but I'm afraid that it would take something tremendous in order to pull it off; too many people believe (and I guess they're right) that voting for anyone but republican or democrat is basically throwing your vote away.


On "think for yourself":

Thinking for yourself without being educated on a situation is plain ignorant. While I'm one of the biggest advocates of 'free thought' you'll ever meet, I know that the political bandwagon is not the place for thinking freely from other people's influence. As it stands, politics is all about gathering information, taking a stance, then sharing that stance with as many people as you can. If you don't take a stance that there are already supporters for, you're going to have a hell of a time advocating your beliefs. So while I don't agree with everything that comes out of the liberal end of the spectrum, I feel that the liberals have it right on the things that matter most, like civil liberties.

And while we're throwing quotes around, here's what I assume to be 2 alterations of 1 quote from Ben Franklin:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
-and-
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Being educated on what is going on is usually third-hand knowledge or better. It's important, but it must be balanced with actual First-hand Experience in what is going on. Someone living in a cave and reading books on issues isn't going to find a real solution to a problem that someone outside the cave and in the heat of the bullshit is actually experiencing.

Anyway, Helemoto is keeping it real in my opinion. However, when it comes down to it, and I'd be forced to side with a party, it's usually a Republican for the simple fact that they "typically" support the military a hell of a lot better than the democrats do. Not always the case, but more often than not.

Anyway, these kind of discussions normally serve no purpose but to inform everyone else on different perspectives, although it's all rhetoric and solves nothing in the end.

HELEMOTO - get your ass in Vanguard. I think I sent you a ton of armor for your DK and have a lot more in the bank if you need it.

I'll wrap it up with one of my own favorite quotes from an "old guy."

Quote:

---

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

---

Well, the US is the only nation I know who publicly lock-up non soldiers people w/o charges and a trial.

France, Span, England, Ireland, Japan, all have dealt recently with terrorists. These terrorists are :
- killed during arrest operations cause they resist.
- or put in jail, waiting for a trial.

They are not :
- locked-up in a foreign country.
- refused any right.

They declared war on us. They attacked us, and now they want to whine because they feel we aren't treating them nicely?

Fuck them, and the camel they rode in on.

I agree with Owain. People that terrorize, kill, and war against us should be shot before they can surrender. If interrogation is needed for info - so be it. You CANNOT interrogate properly be being "nice" to prisoners - it only works if you have the badcop/goodcop thing going.

When people infringe on the basic rights of all people by terrorizing or killing them, those victimizers have JUST NEGATED THEIR OWN BASIC RIGHTS and are NOT INNOCENT. Killing or torturing someone who is not innocent isn't wrong in the slightest. You're nipping the problem in the bud so it doesn't spread like a disease. I'm certain Owain and I are seeing eye to eye on this not because we like killing people, but because we've SEEN and WITNESSED the bullshit firsthand.

I'm so sick of theories from armchair warriors/idealists.