The KGB Oracle
Posted By: Slinger For those who value freedom... - 04/26/07 01:46 AM
It's a pretty quick read, and could make a serious impact on the way you look at the future and what needs to be done to make a good one...

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps:

clicky
Posted By: Garal Re: For those who value freedom... - 04/26/07 04:04 AM
Maybe if you knew how to make a clicky ;p
Posted By: Owain What a load of crap! - 04/27/07 02:45 PM
For an alternative opinion on this tripe, go here.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 04/27/07 08:46 PM
One side is right, the other is wrong, I guess... Here's a little more reading on the same topic.

These two articles basically boil down to the same thing, the first makes points of relation to other times and events in history, while the second is a bit longer and talks about today's situation in particular:

Gene Callahan's "Welcome to Fascist America!"

Amnesty International's review of the Military Commission Act of 2006


Owain, find me some reading that dismisses these articles simply by dismissing them... rightwingnews.com, bah!
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 12:08 AM
And a little more from a man who I feel the right wing would relate to really well, General Tommy Franks, taken from an interview with Cigar Aficionado magazine.

This is just a snippet from the interview, and it holds the same meaning both in and out of context with the rest of the interview. This is the part I care about.

"CA: You just said that the war in Iraq was not just about weapons of mass destruction, but is part of the overall fight against terrorism. Given that profound statement, what are your feelings about criticism of President Bush that because we've found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, it suggests the president misled our country, and we had no business going to war there?

Gen. Franks: That's a fair question. I'll give you an answer on two levels. First off, with respect to the whole discussion of what was known that caused our government to decide to go into Iraq and how that was tied to the war on terrorism, and so forth: my first comment is, Ain't this a great country! The people who crafted our Constitution more than 200 years ago saw fit to enable America to be informed, saw fit to enable both negativists and positivists to make their points forcefully. Ain't this a great country? The fact that there is negativism and questioning and political debate and discussion and sniping, and so forth, satisfies me just fine. I'm OK with that.

Now, let me talk to the substance of your question: Two years after the fact of 9/11, we should ask ourselves what is—not in 1941, not in 1917ñ1918—today, in the twenty-first century, what is the worst thing that can happen in our country? The worst thing that can happen is, perhaps—and this is my personal opinion—two steps. The first step would be a nexus between weapons of mass destruction of any variety. It could be chemical, it could be biological, it could be some nuclear device; and terrorism. Terrorists or any human being who is committed to the proposition of terror, try to just create casualties, not for the purpose of annihilation, but to terrify a population. We see it in the Middle East today, in order to change the mannerisms, the behavior, the sociology and, ultimately, the anthropology of a society.

That goes to step number two, which is that the western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we've seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy. Now, in a practical sense, what does that mean? It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive casualty-producing event somewhere in the western world—it may be in the United States of America—that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass-casualty-producing event. Which, in fact, then begins to potentially unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps: very, very important."
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 01:04 AM
First of all when I read something that is slanted only to one side I stop reading it.
Second of all who can tell me why both sides disagree on everything.
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 01:16 AM
Lack of Balance and Objectivity.

Our Nation is screaming for a strong independent party to step up to the plate - We're just too confused by the propaganda of both parties to fully realize it.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 01:25 AM
Well for the reason they dont agree I belive its to keep everyone divided to stop a 3rd party from getting any real power.

I do agree that a viable 3rd party is what we need, awwww screw that we need 3 or 4 more, but that is wishful thinking.

To get a 3rd party going they need to work up from the bottom and not try for the President everytime.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 01:38 AM
In the particular case of the article I originally posted, followed by the article Owain posted, they contradict each other because the latter was designed to do only that. It's common to see this in political arguments, especially when one sides argument is about as deep is "It's not this way, well, uhh, because, it doesn't matter, they told us it was better for us this way..."

This isn't about how liberal some people are. This isn't about how conservative some people are. This is about the fact that the definition of 'freedom' here in the United States is being carved away at piece by piece. If you do your homework on the Military Commission Act you'll find that it's wishy-washy when noting who may or may not be deemed an "enemy combatant" and subject to treatment according to the Military Commission Act. While supporters of the Act will state that the changes made from earlier versions of the Act use the word 'alien' to specify who is covered under the Act, it's still very controversial, seeing as the rest of the act provides the executive branch with the ability to deny lawyers access to "top secret" information concerning the case unless they're 'qualified' to view it. So once you've been deemed an "enemy combatant" and taken into potentially indefinite detention (as made possible by our lovely Act), as long as the government doesn't want you to be heard from again, they just slap your case with a little "Top Secret" stamp and hide you away in a one man cell until they're bored of you, and then they get away with it by saying "oops".

In short, our system of checks and balances is being twisted, manipulated, and dismantled. While you read about what's happening in our country, keep in mind that the Holocaust started with the Jews, and went much, much farther.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 01:43 AM
Yes! We need more parties that are viable! To only have 2 real contenders for elections is on the verge of being unconstitutional (I have to do some homework before I say that it *is* unconstitutional), but it hasn't, and probably won't happen because democracy is ill-fated to not last for a long period of time in it's true form. It seems that a Leftist party and a Rightist party is the best compromise we've been able to make with the natural laws of trust/distrust, language, propaganda, and all of that other fun stuff that keeps us buried in the corrosive loop we're in.
Posted By: BoSllBibliotequa Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 03:05 AM
Well it isn't unconstitutional since the constitution doesn't mention parties at all.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 03:09 AM
Good call, lol...

So in terms of legality, they are not unconstitutional, but in terms of presence, they are? (lol, just a little play on the prefix, don't take me seriously here! XD)
Posted By: Arcain Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 04:53 AM
you guys just need to learn how to riot like the french
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 04/28/07 11:41 AM
Yes, the French have usually been so much better off after their riots...
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 12:15 AM
FYI there are over 30 political partys in the US only 2 that have any real power.

As for democracy not lasting in its true form.
I can not think of one country that has had a true democracy in history. Let me know if you think of one.
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 04:06 AM

Ok, substitute "true democracy" for "free republic". Focusing on semantics here is rather disingenuous dont you think?
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 02:10 PM
Quote:

Owain, find me some reading that dismisses these articles simply by dismissing them... rightwingnews.com, bah!



The source is irrelevant if the arguments are valid. From your article:
"1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy"
Since we no shit have a serious external enemy, I don't think this is sign of the coming fascist state. If you don't think we have a serious external enemy, Google Sept 11, and rewatch the video of the towers falling. And they want to do that and worse, again.

2. Create a gulag. Prisoner of War camps do not qualify as Gulags - as soon as we start throwing large number of purely political prisoners, US Citizens, let me know. John Walker Lynd and Joseph Padilla don't count, since they actively went over to the other side.

3. Develop a thug caste. I know lefties dislike VP Cheney and Haliburton, but I don't think they qualify. I couldn't find any reference to republican goons in Florida for the 2000 election mentioned in the article, but I did find this. But that's Democrats behaving badly, which doesn't support the argument very well.

4. Set up an internal surveillance system. Crap - the warrentless wiretaps and other measures under beefed up security target communications that originate in other countries, and fall under Article II of the US Constitution outlining the powers of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed forces.

The rest of the points are just as week, and are well covered in the article I linked.

I think the original article in the Guardian is a blatant violation of Godwin's Law, and was designed to appeal to the "Hate America First" crowd.

I'm sorry to see people slinging this trash in here.
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 05:54 PM

"1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy"
Since we no shit have a serious external enemy, I don't think this is sign of the coming fascist state. If you don't think we have a serious external enemy, Google Sept 11, and rewatch the video of the towers falling. And they want to do that and worse, again."

I personally dont think becoming a closed society is the answer to preventing terrorism. There is no doubt becoming a police state will make it harder for terrorists to strike, but do you really think that its the answer?

"2. Create a gulag. Prisoner of War camps do not qualify as Gulags - as soon as we start throwing large number of purely political prisoners, US Citizens, let me know. John Walker Lynd and Joseph Padilla don't count, since they actively went over to the other side."

Actually they are NOT prisoners of war, they are "enemy combatants", big big difference when looking at the legal implications. One example of an innocent man being kidnapped and tortured overseas. Links from Time aand other domestic journalism stories available upon request, the Amnesty story was just atop the list after a quick google. Think its only one? What about the lawyer from Seattle, and never NEVER forget that most of the people in Guantanamo have yet to be charged with anything, and never forget that the worst thing about this is the SECRECY involved. Starting with "undesirables" like "Muslims", the govt is getting the American people used to the idea that secretly detaining and torturing people is OK, and trying to lay a future legal framework that will apply when the targets are no longer muslims, but domestic political activists for other causes.

"3. Develop a thug caste. I know lefties dislike VP Cheney and Haliburton, but I don't think they qualify. I couldn't find any reference to republican goons in Florida for the 2000 election mentioned in the article, but I did find this. But that's Democrats behaving badly, which doesn't support the argument very well."

IIRC the article talked about private armies in general, not just Haliburton. I dont think the problem is a party issue either, both parties have problems. Its not a lefty-righty issue, as a matter of fact true conservatives despise over-reaching government. True conservatives would never trade liberty for an illusion of security.

""4. Set up an internal surveillance system. Crap - the warrentless wiretaps and other measures under beefed up security target communications that originate in other countries, and fall under Article II of the US Constitution outlining the powers of the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed forces.

Wow.... so blatantly untrue I dont even know where to begin with this ones, and it basically warrents its own post, which I will make regarding the subject in the not to distant future. Can we say Axciom, SeisInt, Matrix anyone? Can we say NSA STA recording devices on AT&T fiber trunks? Can we say unprecedented use of domestic National Security Letters, complete with lackadaisy records keeping regarding the matter, the FBI was even rebuked by the Inspector General for it.

Origional Articles remaining points just as weak? Come ON Owain, the counters you mentioned/pasted dont even have basic information about the subject, including the President's own stances (see point #2). How on EARTH can you take such a ill-informed, poorly formulated "rebuke" as anything but pure claptrap.

As least grab a rebuke from a source that has the first clue whats going on, or maybe they havent been so ignorant as to ignore the whole point of the President's and DOJ's arguments regarding "enemy combatants" and are intentionally lying to you in hopes you will, lacking proper information, continue to support these dastardly projects.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 06:48 PM
You are correct in that they are not prisoners of war. I was being sloppy there. If we were to treat them strictly in accordance with the Geneva Convention, since they do not abide by recognized laws of armed conflict in that they do not wear recognizable uniforms, we would be justified in considering them to be spies and sabateurs, and should summarily have them all shot. Instead, they get a extended stay at Club Gitmo, where they gain weight and live under better conditions than they would at home, at least when they aren't throwing feces at the guards.

But even so, Gitmo is not a gulag, any more than the facilities we had here in Utah during WWII to hold German and Italian prisoners were gulags. But then we had a much higher class of prisoners back then.

You know that when you consider Nazi's and Italian facists to be "not so bad" you must be dealing with some pretty serious vermin.

And so we are.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 04/30/07 11:01 PM
Quote:


Ok, substitute "true democracy" for "free republic". Focusing on semantics here is rather disingenuous dont you think?



Or since all the bashing of the ,lets go with Representive Republic,which it is. Its not semantics to state the correct terms. If we are going to talk about the American Constitution getting it right is very important. Lets all take a monment and read the old papers again(slinger)
As for the prisoners in the gulag, They have no rights under US law. They are not Americans. Enemy combatants-prisoners of war I dont care what you call them if they are not americans and the military wants them where they are so be it. Stick a frickin firecracker up his ass if thats what it takes to make him talk. I saw a poll that said 75% of muslims said radical mulsims are bad. So 25% suport them kinda scary when you think about it a bit.
In your sticky the ACLU American Civil Liberty Union I belive is the the right name for them is defending a person that is not American. Lets highlight the American part .

O I know you will say something like they have the same rights we do but they dont. If we fuck up and take the wrong guy they should so something to make it right. But to not try to get the right guys is not a good way to go. We what the guy they thought they had and smash his balls till he converts to Scientology And we have to do it secretly or we will never get anything done. Try and Butch up Mary its a fuckin mean world out there and they will put a bullet in your eye before you can give them your leftist rant about what is right and wrong with the greatest country the world has ever seen or the leftst view that its the worst country the world has ever been made to suffer.
This may sound ranty but I was just made branch manager against my will and I want to spill blood. So instead of going to jail I found you.
Lets see o ya all kids above 8 should learn how to use weapons.
Taxes should only be use for the military.
All current politicians should be sent to Arkansas to live for 30 years and a new bunch elected in.
Rap music sucks(lol music my ass) get over it.
Todays country music is nothing but top 40 crap May Cash and Haggard forgive us.
Rock-n-Roll is getting better again Nickleback worst band ever

DONT FORGET ANYONE CAN TAKE ANYTHING AND MAKE IT LOOK HOW THEY WANT. MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. READ BETWEEN THE LINES NOT JUST FROM ONE POINT OF VIEW. DONT GET STUCK ON ONE SIDE OF THE ISSUE.

BELIVE NOTHING OF WHAT YOU READ AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT SEE
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 01:30 AM

Some of what you say I actually agree with Helemoto.

The biggest misconception about me on these forums among some viewers, is that I am a leftist because I think the country is in a dangerous spot at the moment. Or that I am a Democrat, when in fact I am neither.

But I really urge you to take a closer look at what is going on. My ranting is NOT anti-american ranting, quite the opposite. The so called Neo-cons are the anti-american ones here. Them and their leftist, socialist counterparts who disagree on some things publically, but work together privately for greater power over the lives and fates of ordinary americans.

Stop and think why America is regarded as great, and it doesnt have much to do with soil. It has to do with our system, and our people, and the fact that in the past we were willing to suffer hardship and uncertainty to preserve and maintain liberty.

Those who attempt to break our system, and subvert our liberty are not being pro-american. They just manage to convince some people they are because they shout the loudest about how evil the "bad guys" are. Just because the "bad guys" are evil, doesnt mean that we should listen to the demogogues who claim we all need to fall into line and give up our national identity, civil rights, and future.
Posted By: Arkh Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 02:23 AM
Just a thought about the guantanamo prisonners situation and some of your argument.
If a not-US army, let say spanish, take some hundreds american activists and put them in a jail :
- these activists are not soldiers and don't wear uniform.
- they are not spanish.

So, following your idea, these american people should be kept and tortured cause they don't have any right ?
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 02:26 AM
I do look at what is going on on a daily basis. I am just not as good as stating my opinions as you and some others I tend to speak with bricks as you speak with quilted pens.

And America is great for the reasons you state but for so many more that can come out of your comment.

I also hate all the new ways to put people in groups like neo-cons.

Just look at history the same arguments have been going on for along time. Yes some new ones have come up but most are the same. Every president has been called the same thing over and over. But I am not going to listen to one side that blast away with half truths and outright lies. I look in between the lines.
I hear on one side how my life was better off with thier president but in truth no matter who has been in office my life has been getting better with each passing year.

I will now share a qoute from Thomas Jefferson
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free,in a state of civilization it expects what never was and never will be"

I found in my advance age that there are more stupid people in this country then I have ever expected could be in such a small area of the world.
Most people lock onto one side and stay there till they die. My question of why do dems and reps never agree on anything has alot to do with this. They know by keeping these people fighting each other will keep their partys alive and not give much chance to a 3rd or 4th party from getting power.

Breaking this cycle I think is the most important thing this country should do to save itself.

One last qoute. I love qoutes but they do come from the old guys.

"I am resolved to rise with the sun and to study the Scriptures on thrusday, friday, Saturday, and Sunday mornings. Noons and nights I intend to read english authors....I will rouse up my mind and fix my attention. I will stand collected within myself and think upon what I read and what I see. I will strive with all my soul to be something more then persons who have had less advantages than myself."
John Adams at the age of 20
John Adams was born into a poor farm family, and was in Harvard at the age of 15. So this proves that all young people are not stupid. So get off your asses and think for yourselfs.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 03:03 AM
Helemoto, I agree 100% that we need to break the tradition of 2 powerful parties, and that there is hardly anything more important than that when it comes to presidential elections. I'd like to see it happen, but I'm afraid that it would take something tremendous in order to pull it off; too many people believe (and I guess they're right) that voting for anyone but republican or democrat is basically throwing your vote away.


On "think for yourself":

Thinking for yourself without being educated on a situation is plain ignorant. While I'm one of the biggest advocates of 'free thought' you'll ever meet, I know that the political bandwagon is not the place for thinking freely from other people's influence. As it stands, politics is all about gathering information, taking a stance, then sharing that stance with as many people as you can. If you don't take a stance that there are already supporters for, you're going to have a hell of a time advocating your beliefs. So while I don't agree with everything that comes out of the liberal end of the spectrum, I feel that the liberals have it right on the things that matter most, like civil liberties.

And while we're throwing quotes around, here's what I assume to be 2 alterations of 1 quote from Ben Franklin:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
-and-
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 03:55 AM
Being educated on what is going on is usually third-hand knowledge or better. It's important, but it must be balanced with actual First-hand Experience in what is going on. Someone living in a cave and reading books on issues isn't going to find a real solution to a problem that someone outside the cave and in the heat of the bullshit is actually experiencing.

Anyway, Helemoto is keeping it real in my opinion. However, when it comes down to it, and I'd be forced to side with a party, it's usually a Republican for the simple fact that they "typically" support the military a hell of a lot better than the democrats do. Not always the case, but more often than not.

Anyway, these kind of discussions normally serve no purpose but to inform everyone else on different perspectives, although it's all rhetoric and solves nothing in the end.

HELEMOTO - get your ass in Vanguard. I think I sent you a ton of armor for your DK and have a lot more in the bank if you need it.

I'll wrap it up with one of my own favorite quotes from an "old guy."

Quote:

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill







Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 01:38 PM
Quote:

Just a thought about the guantanamo prisonners situation and some of your argument.
If a not-US army, let say spanish, take some hundreds american activists and put them in a jail :
- these activists are not soldiers and don't wear uniform.
- they are not spanish.

So, following your idea, these american people should be kept and tortured cause they don't have any right ?



You gotta be shittin' me! Who do you think we have locked up down at Gitmo? Greenpeace tree huggers? These aren't 'activists', they are stone cold terrorist murdering rat bastards we have swept up in Afghanistan and Iraq where they were busy trying to kill everyone they could to advance their Jihad. If they weren't locked up, they'd be trying to kill more of us, either home or overseas.

So, let's say members of the Aryan Nation up in Idaho decided to go over to Spain, to use your example, and successfully killed several thousand Spaniards. Not only would I not object if they captured a couple of hundred of them and locked them up indefinately, I'd hope our government would assist in hunting them down and destroying them.

Activists, my ass!
Posted By: Arkh Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 02:03 PM
Well, the US is the only nation I know who publicly lock-up non soldiers people w/o charges and a trial.

France, Span, England, Ireland, Japan, all have dealt recently with terrorists. These terrorists are :
- killed during arrest operations cause they resist.
- or put in jail, waiting for a trial.

They are not :
- locked-up in a foreign country.
- refused any right.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 02:23 PM
They declared war on us. They attacked us, and now they want to whine because they feel we aren't treating them nicely?

Fuck them, and the camel they rode in on.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 03:50 PM
Quote:

If they weren't locked up, they'd be trying to kill more of us, either home or overseas.




If our soldiers were here at home where they belong, they wouldn't be getting killed over seas. If our soldiers were here at home where they belong we would be able to defend against the terrorists who COME HERE to attack us. What are we doing in Iraq? We're pissing off the Iraqi civilians so they join in on the jihad. Where does that leave us? With a bunch of pissed off Iraqis who would A) sit at home and not bother us in the least or B) come here to the US (ps - they can't attack us if they aren't here) and attack us. Remember, this is a war on TERROR, not a war on IRAQ, Iraq just happens to be where the potential terrorists live. Oh, and oil. (FYI, if the Bush administration said "We're going to war with Iraq for their oil." I would be totally cool with that; empirical wars serve a clean cut purpose, whether it's good or bad.)


Quote:

They declared war on us. They attacked us, and now they want to whine because they feel we aren't treating them nicely?




Who declared war on us? Iraq? Afghanistan? Or a handful of religious radicals? So now we're in their country and they're thinking something really similar to what we thought on 9/11/01. I bet an everyday thought for most people there is "Damn Christians, they don't know the difference between their mouth and the bad end of a gun." This is a holy war! We represent Western culture, aka Christianity, and they're Muslim. It's our crusade against their jihad. The big difference is, when they get killed in battle, they go to their heaven and are greeted with 70 virgin women with which they have their way.
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 04:06 PM
I agree with Owain. People that terrorize, kill, and war against us should be shot before they can surrender. If interrogation is needed for info - so be it. You CANNOT interrogate properly be being "nice" to prisoners - it only works if you have the badcop/goodcop thing going.

When people infringe on the basic rights of all people by terrorizing or killing them, those victimizers have JUST NEGATED THEIR OWN BASIC RIGHTS and are NOT INNOCENT. Killing or torturing someone who is not innocent isn't wrong in the slightest. You're nipping the problem in the bud so it doesn't spread like a disease. I'm certain Owain and I are seeing eye to eye on this not because we like killing people, but because we've SEEN and WITNESSED the bullshit firsthand.

I'm so sick of theories from armchair warriors/idealists.
Posted By: Arkh Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 04:16 PM
Quote:

When people infringe on the basic rights of all people by terrorizing or killing them, those victimizers have JUST NEGATED THEIR OWN BASIC RIGHTS and are NOT INNOCENT.




So, you say every soldier who has gone to war and killed civilians, every man who gave order to these soldier have negated their rights ?
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 04:37 PM

I dont think the issue at hand here is people feeling any sympathy for Al-Qaeda.

As a matter of fact even the new SecDef was pushing for the closure of gitmo, its not like everyone who wants gitmo closed is exactly a leftist.

I dont think the issue is what people do to terrorists overseas even, if theyre not Americans. (One exception being foreign nationals of friendly nations, alienating our allies by totally disrespecting their soveirenghty isnt wise in the long term IMO, and I dont think anyone has accused the Germans or even the French of being soft or lax in pursuing and prosecuting terrorists)

Its the fact that there is a very great likelihood that MOST of the people in gitmo, are in fact innocent. Its also use of secret evidence against US citizens (and citizens of friendly nations whom we have treaties/bonds with) that is at issue.

I understand the ex-military peoples concerns here, but unfortunatly have yet to see much put forth other than something that basically boils down to " terrorists are evil, so trust that the authorities are doing the right thing no matter what." With a heavy insunuation that everyone else is ignorant because we arent military people, and everyone else is trying to "help the bad guys" or dissent is the "bad guys whining".

I have a problem with that, because its EXACTLY the proper conditions for loss of liberty. The pervasiveness of that mindset is in fact possibly the number one reason I am worried so much about our future.

And Arkh, I would think yes it does apply - if the soldiers are knowingly targeting civilians for the purpose of killing civilians. Which, to the best of my knowlegde, does not happen very often in the US armed forces. And when it does happen, there are prosecutions and jailings. Which is a big difference between US and them, and a difference I hope we can keep.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 05:20 PM
Quote:

If our soldiers were here at home where they belong, they wouldn't be getting killed over seas. If our soldiers were here at home where they belong we would be able to defend against the terrorists who COME HERE to attack us.



Our soldiers are exactly where they need to be, because, as present, our enemies are concentrated in Iraq and Afghanistan. Al Quada knows what is at stake in both of those countries, which is exactly why they are pushing back so hard. If they lose there, they have lost it ALL. If we pull back, it will allow them an opportunity to regroup, rearm, and hit us again at the spot of THIER chosing. Where will that be? New York again? Washington, again. Los Angeles? We need to stop them there, so the don't try to hit us here.

Quote:

What are we doing in Iraq?



See the above. Marines (and soldiers) run to the sound of gunfire, ant Iraq (and Afghanistan) is where the fighting is.

Quote:

We're pissing off the Iraqi civilians so they join in on the jihad.



That actually doesn't seem to be the case (see this). It is my understanding that currently, most of the insurgency/terrorism is Iraq is being fomented by outsiders from Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Native Iraquis are getting fed up with it, even the the former Saddam Bathists, and as we are seeing in Anbar Province, even the Iraqui insurgents are starting to kill the Al Quaida terrorists. This is how the just in the last day or so, the top Al Quaida guy in Iraq, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, was killed.
Quote:


Where does that leave us? With a bunch of pissed off Iraqis who would A) sit at home and not bother us in the least or B) come here to the US (ps - they can't attack us if they aren't here) and attack us. Remember, this is a war on TERROR, not a war on IRAQ, Iraq just happens to be where the potential terrorists live.



Not potential terrorists. This is where the no shit current active terrorists are. If we leave, as we did when we helped Afghanistan kick out the Soviets leaving the way open for the Taliban to take over, these guys won't just go home and start herding goats again. We have to knock there dicks into the dirt OVER THERE.
Quote:

Oh, and oil. (FYI, if the Bush administration said "We're going to war with Iraq for their oil." I would be totally cool with that; empirical wars serve a clean cut purpose, whether it's good or bad.)




Oil is a consideration, but it's not the only consideraton. The primary goal is the defeat of Islamic Fascism, and like it or not, that is best done over there.
Posted By: BoSllBibliotequa Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 06:38 PM
Quote:

If our soldiers were here at home where they belong we would be able to defend against the terrorists who COME HERE to attack us.




Oh come on, man. On September 11th, save troops in Guantamo Bay, the Korean border, and other such foreign bases and militarized zones, our whole armed forces were pretty much in mainland U.S. We had an Air Force squadron doing drills about what... half an hour away from New York? I'm sure Armed Forces are crawling all over the Northeast seeing how there are such important cities so closely packed together, yet guess what? They were still able to take down not one, but both Twin Towers. No one had any idea it was coming, and even after the first plane hit the military was powerless to prevent the second one from hitting. Come on man, it's terrorism, it's guerilla tactics, you think the military is going to be able to put a stop to it?

You're absolutely right about the effects of leaving Iraw, Owain. Much as I would like to see the war end, people are being too irrational about it. They freak out about 3000 deaths in four years, if you put it into perspective, this is fantastic, probably the safest war we have ever fought, a minuscule price to pay for stopping the spread of Islam in the middle east. In Vietnam by now we would have been in the hundreds of thousands of deaths. In Vietnam we left, and communism just sweeped in and made those what... (million?) lives lost A complete waste because they ended up dying for nothing. If we leave Iraq as it is now the very people we fought four years to remove from power will get back in, and the very insurgents we are fighting are going to end up overpowering the innocent civilians living there, and once again there is going to be a festering hot-spot of Anti-American sentiment in the middle-east.
Posted By: 5050 Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 07:01 PM
Well this in one heckuva a post....

First when it comes to our political process until we get all of the money out of it there will only be 2 viable parties... To think that combined the top 6 political candidates have raised close to $100 million in the first quarter of this year alone is sickening. The fact that the common man has no chance to run for office is what is wrong... Big money and undue influence by special interest groups is what needs to be addressed.

As for the "War on Terror" I will add my 2 cents.... the best defense is a strong offense... and you always want to fight on your terms at the time of your choosing at the location you want to... You must always dictate as many of the variables in a battle you can... never let the enemy dictate anything you can control.

With that said I think we made a mistake in going into Iraq, but I only say that as an after the fact event. The bigger mistake was grossly under-estimating the nation building required after the cessation of military operations. That I think we can blame at the highest level and what is slowly turning into what I call the 3 ring circus that is taking place at the White House. We made some brutal mistakes in Iraq not realizing the instability of the entire region and not having enough forces in place to deal with the fallout of the decline of the Hussein debacle.

Our forces are doing the best they can, but the simple fact is that it is next to impossible to train for this environment. It is extremely similar to Vietnam in that it is next to impossible to tell the difference between friend and foe. We need to be there to stabilize the region... and yes oil is a big consideration (but let's not get started on that... we could write a book on that one). Somehow we need to get the Iraqi's more interested in self government than killing each other (which they have done for centuries by the way).

Finally having soldiers here will accomplish nothing... and if you need a study on isolationism and appeasement go read the early history of WWII... and remember, those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We have faltered and unfortunately we may fail... yet it will be for the right causes. This is a war on terror but also a religious war of principles and ideals... what we really need to have happen is for the silent Muslim majority who preach the true ideal of Islam that is peace, not the radical extremist fundamentals of violence... until that happens we will always have this struggle... until then we need to address the issue AWAY from and NOT ON OUR SOIL... that is losing fight that you do not want to have happen!
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 07:37 PM

"Oh come on, man. On September 11th, save troops in Guantamo Bay, the Korean border, and other such foreign bases and militarized zones, our whole armed forces were pretty much in mainland U.S. We had an Air Force squadron doing drills about what... half an hour away from New York? I'm sure Armed Forces are crawling all over the Northeast seeing how there are such important cities so closely packed together, yet guess what? They were still able to take down not one, but both Twin Towers."

Correct.

"You're absolutely right about the effects of leaving Iraw, Owain. Much as I would like to see the war end, people are being too irrational about it. They freak out about 3000 deaths in four years, if you put it into perspective, this is fantastic, probably the safest war we have ever fought, a minuscule price to pay for stopping the spread of Islam in the middle east. In Vietnam by now we would have been in the hundreds of thousands of deaths."

Lets break this down into its 2 main points:

1) " Much as I would like to see the war end, people are being too irrational about it. They freak out about 3000 deaths in four years"

Now, apply that logic to erosion of liberty. Terrorists killed 3000 people. Yeah, it obviously a big deal, but its irrational to sacrifice liberty for it. In fact, the goal of terrorism of this type is to intimidate and change a society through use of fear. In other words, we are losing, no matter how many terrorists we kill, simply by closing our society and forsaking our former ideals.

and part 2) "this is fantastic, probably the safest war we have ever fought, a minuscule price to pay for stopping the spread of Islam in the middle east. "

I hope you mean Islamo-facism as some call it, the Middle East has been mostly Islamic for a long long time now. However if its Islamo-facism, there was none of it to be found in Iraq before the war. For all Saddam was an evil tyrant, he was a secular one. Islamo facists, be they sunni al quada or shiite Iranian bvoth despised him for being a secularist. Which is why, despite his many failings on the human rights front the funded him, and gave him all sorts of chemical weapons technology during the 80's. He was a bad guy then, and we knew it, but he was fighting the Iranian islamo-facists who to our view were worse guys, as they wanted to form an islamo-facist nation across the middle east, including Saudi Arabia. Incidentally, I happen to agree with Reagan on this.

Though the current Iraq war was justified 100% on total pure BS. Independant thinkers, as some on this thread like to say, have been skeptical from the start, and put 2+2 together on it pretty early.

Now just lately, the proof has been surfacing. Sad state of affairs.

The sadder state, is that there is, unfortunatly, probably some truth to the postulation that a retreat from Iraq may embolden terrorist elements. I disagree with some of the details in previous posts on the how and why, but, still, retreating from this mess we've created may not be in our best interests.

Which is sad, because we never should have been there and created the mess in the first place. But all we can do now is deal with it.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 08:42 PM
Quote:

Yeah, it obviously a big deal, but its irrational to sacrifice liberty for it. In fact, the goal of terrorism of this type is to intimidate and change a society through use of fear. In other words, we are losing, no matter how many terrorists we kill, simply by closing our society and forsaking our former ideals.



I keep hearing this, but I really haven't seen any concrete evidence that it is happening. There's a lot of hand wringing, wailing, and gnashing of teeth about what MIGHT happen. Yeah, well someday, pigs MIGHT develop the ability to fly, and Democrats MIGHT become credible with respect to national defense. Personally, I think that the pigs are a better bet.

There's an old saying, "It seems that fascism is always threatening to fall on America, but for some reason, it keeps landing in Europe, instead."

Yes, it's something to be on the watch for, but in the meantime, we shouldn't just lie down and surrender, either.

In my opinion, the closest we got to a fascist state was when Janet Reno was the Attorney General under the Clinton Administration. What do you think Nancy Pelosi/Teddy Kennedy/John Kerry would have done if President Bush ran tanks through the Branch Davidian compound at Waco, and killed over 80 Americans like Reno did? Or how about the FBI sniper that Reno had kill Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge?

And you guys are soiling your trou over jihadis at Club Gitmo, and want to tell me that the Bush Administration is a threat to our civil liberties? That is some kind of serious bullshit.

Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 08:54 PM
Regardless of whether or not we should be in Iraq isn't really the issue at hand here, as I see this thread being derailed. There are reasons to leave and there are reasons to stay; there are reasons we should have never gone in the first place, and there are the reasons we went. Derid hit the nail on the head though; we're in Iraq, we need to finish on a positive note, and we need to avoid throwing away our liberties while we're trying to wipe out the terrorists and patch the holes. If we're going to play 'world police', so be it, but I'm not willing to give up the freedoms that our troops are fighting for, regardless of where they fight for them at.
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 08:56 PM
Quote:

Quote:

When people infringe on the basic rights of all people by terrorizing or killing them, those victimizers have JUST NEGATED THEIR OWN BASIC RIGHTS and are NOT INNOCENT.




So, you say every soldier who has gone to war and killed civilians, every man who gave order to these soldier have negated their rights ?




Just because someone is a "Civilian" doesn't make them innocent. In fact, the problem over there is that it IS civilians who are doing the terrorizing and it's hard to separate the fox from the chickens. When a soldier makes the wrong call, they are punished, and rightly so. But to be a soldier in this war has got to be more difficult than any war in the past. Place yourself in their shoes.
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:01 PM

First of all, I agree about Janet Reno, well not that its the worst, but yes that it was pretty damn bad. I also remember Ruby Ridge, the legislative assaults on our gun rights, the constant stories of the ATF storming and trashing the houses of innocent gun owners and much much more. Like I've said previously, I'm not a Democrat.

The recent tactics are different, and have more to do with setting bad precedents, and the setting up of a survielance state. Hell, once your on one of the govts "bad lists" like the no-fly, just try getting yourself off of it. Noone can, except the wealthy and influential, and even they can have difficulty.

Where to go from here?

Well, just imagine Janet Reno with the kinds of unchecked survielance and detention powers currently being enjoyed by that lapdog Gonzales.

I remember, better than most.

The groundwork, in the name of fighting terrorism, is being cleary and plainly laid right now to empower a bigger, badder Janet Reno, one who will be able to label innocent people a "domestic terrorist" and detain them with evedence noone ever gets to see or hear.

If it can plausibly happen in govt, it will. If you depend on the wisdom, objectivity, and personal integrity of govt officials to not abuse easily abusable powers, you are going to be dissapointed about every time. I think you know that as much as I do. Just because you dont mind Bush having these powers, are you so sure you dont mind Hillary having them?
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:10 PM
Quote:

Regardless of whether or not we should be in Iraq isn't really the issue at hand here




Go back to your original post, click on the link, and look at point number 1. If you want to backpedal on that now, I think we can officially agree to declare the article bullshit, and be done with it.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:10 PM
Owain, here's why I see the 'potential issue' to be an issue of its own. The problem isn't that Americans are being held captive, tortured, or any of the other things I've talked about possibly happening. The problem is that we're locking our country down in a way that, in the wrong hands (a fluke administration with really negative intentions), Americans could end up locked up and tortured for doing something that some authority didn't agree with, like I dunno, utilizing our right to free speech...

So here it is:

The Bush administration went a little overboard with our response to 9/11, but they could have done worse. Now, they're changing the constitution so that under the "right circumstances" (and we know that agencies like the CIA have a way of making up the "right circumstances") our system of checks and balances is all out of whack, and anyone they don't want to leave or enter the country won't be able to.

All in all, I can say that the primary (and almost sole) threat to the country RIGHT NOW is the terrorists, but we're setting ourselves up for internal corruption and/or abuse of power.

So far, it seems like we all agree on one thing: those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

I'm pretty confident that we're stuck in this system of arguing rather than being more efficient and negotiate what will truly help filter terrorists out of our country, while not revoking the freedoms we enjoy from day to day.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:26 PM
Quote:

Just because you dont mind Bush having these powers, are you so sure you dont mind Hillary having them?




Yes, well, the Democrat Party in general is problematic when it comes to things like that, seeing that they did a bang up job of running rough shod over civil liberties without the help of the Patriot Act and other recent developments. What with Waco and Ruby Ridge, I think the Clinton Administration had a higher kill count of American citizens than they did against Al Quaida.

But that is what kills me about civil libertarians who are whimpering that the sky is falling now, but who vote Democrats into office. Democrats are the ones who want to poke their nose into every corner of your life, not Republicans.

I read an article today that made me torque my jaws. Some Democrat Party dip shit has suggested that legislation needs to be introduced that would subject people to criminal penalties, including imprisonment, if parents allow thier children under the age of 15 to consume alcohol in thier own homes, and while under parental supervision.

Arrrghhh! Now, once my boys got to be around 14 or 15, I allowed them to drink a small glass of wine, with dinner, if they wanted in order to demystify the whole alcohol thing. They are all in their 20's now. The oldest doesn't drink at all, and the other two only drink a glass or two with meals, as do I. Now, if the Democrat Party morons had had their way then, I'd be in jail for this.

And you guys are worried about President Bush?

Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:27 PM
Quote:

The Bush administration went a little overboard with our response to 9/11...



Defend this statement.

Quote:

Now, they're changing the constitution...



Whaaaa???? Give me an example, please...
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:37 PM
Quote:

Quote:

The Bush administration went a little overboard with our response to 9/11...



Defend this statement.

Quote:

Now, they're changing the constitution...



Whaaaa???? Give me an example, please...




1) Purely opinion

2) Alterations of the constitution, alterations of the law... It all turns into the same thing when my fingers are typing faster than I'm thinking. So what I meant to say was "now they're changing the laws".
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:46 PM
Quote:

Arrrghhh! Now, once my boys got to be around 14 or 15, I allowed them to drink a small glass of wine, with dinner, if they wanted in order to demystify the whole alcohol thing. They are all in their 20's now. The oldest doesn't drink at all, and the other two only drink a glass or two with meals, as do I. Now, if the Democrat Party morons had had their way then, I'd be in jail for this.




My mom and dad did the same thing - let me have wine with dinner and my dad would let me sip his beer when he was BBQing. I learned young that alcohol wasn't a big deal. Today I might go out drinking once every couple months if even that.

When you lock someone up away from something for long enough, they're going to want to rebel and definitely going to want what they couldn't have. De-mystification is the way to go.

Hilary Clinton makes me think of a Commie Mom with a whip. Look at the bottom line in my sig. If you vote for Hilary Clinton you might as well give up playing your adult games. She is so uneducated about video games that she thinks only kids play them and anything else should go away...forever. You'll be playing Age of Conan for maybe 7 months and it will suddenly...disapear...
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:47 PM
Hmmm. As far as the response to 9/11 goes, they didn't go far enough to my way of thinging...

On the second part then:
Quote:

Now, they're changing the constitution so that under the "right circumstances" (and we know that agencies like the CIA have a way of making up the "right circumstances") our system of checks and balances is all out of whack, and anyone they don't want to leave or enter the country won't be able to.




What 'right circumstances' are you referring to, and how are the checks and balances out of whack? And if someone has ties to a terrorist organization, damn straight they shouldn't be able to enter/leave the country.

Specifically, just what are you worried about, here? And if the best you can do is to offer some vague, "well, there is the potential for abuse", color me unimpressed. If you read my previous post, the new Democrat Congress has already displayed far more potiential for abuse to my way of thinking., Where is the righteous indignation about that!
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 09:51 PM
All these posts on this topic Owain....play Vanguard already!
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 10:16 PM
The military Commission Act is one that bothers me quite a bit, even after they amended it. It pretty much allows for any "enemy combatant" to disappear. As we currently stand, I'm with you in that it isn't an issue for us, right now. Lets say President X is elected 10 years down the road and is trying to do something he wants done, no matter the cost, so he promotes an idea, pulls some strings, and soon this questionable idea gets slipped in with a larger bill. The problem is, there are people who pose a huge threat to him if they take the government to court over how his new law is unconstitutional. When the president finds out about such people (because he's been using the Patriot Act to have his friends over in department X of the Pentagon harassing search engine companies for information on who's searching for what), people start to vanish in the night.

Right now, it doesn't matter who the threat in the White House will be, if one even comes into existence, and it doesn't matter when. The problem is that we're setting ourselves up to be in a bad position by allowing for a corrupt government to abuse excessive amounts of powers. If we leave holes in our system, then they can be abused. I don't want to disappear in the night because I think that gay marriage should be legal, abortion is no big deal, the drinking age should be abolished, drugs should be legalized and regulated by the FDA, seat belts and motorcycle helmets should be optional, and people should be able to do whatever they feel like doing in their own homes as long as it isn't injuring another person. And all that jazz.
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 10:25 PM
Quote:

I think that gay marriage should be legal, abortion is no big deal, the drinking age should be abolished, drugs should be legalized and regulated by the FDA, seat belts and motorcycle helmets should be optional, and people should be able to do whatever they feel like doing in their own homes as long as it isn't injuring another person. And all that jazz.




This is the reason the US is in Trouble. We've got both sides and everyone in between arguing over the above issues and many other issues in this thread, including my own. These are minor issues, if that, compared to the real problem the US faces: The Economy, Education both domestic & military, and resources of OUR NATION. All the issues in the quote above are keeping us occupied while we should be focusing on the bigger picture. If we keep squabbling over the scraps, we're going to wake up one night and realize that now that's all we have left: Scraps. This while other nations in Europe have their shit figured out and are pulling ahead.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/01/07 11:14 PM
Quote:

Lets say President X is elected 10 years down the road and is trying to do something he wants done, no matter the cost, so he promotes an idea, pulls some strings, and soon this questionable idea gets slipped in with a larger bill.



Well, that's one thing the two party system is good at guarding against. No matter who is president, the Congress, who makes the laws, will never be composed of just one party. Do you think the Democrats would let President Bush or any other Republican President 'sneak' something in like that? Or the Republicans and a Democrat President?

Not Hardly.

There is plenty of real stuff to be concerned about to be wasting your time worrying about nonsense like that.

Can't play Vanguard at work, Crim. That's where I do my posting. Right now, I'm getting ready to go over and take care of my girlfriend with the two broken wrists, so I'm going to have to bow out of the debate until tomorrow. I should be back in game before too long.
Posted By: Slinger Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 02:10 AM
I wish I could remember exactly what I'm thinking about, but a professor at the school I was at up until last semester was explaining how part of one of the "more controversial" security measures (Patriot Act, Homeland Security, or something to that effect) had an amendment that was tagged onto a larger, unrelated bill, and because the bill was so important, and the amendment so small in comparison, it got passed anyways.

I don't really expect anyone to take this into very much consideration, as I don't know what laws were changed, which bill it was, and because of that I can't find any sources to cite. It's one of the things, though, that has inched it's way under my skin and built up with a lot of the other stuff I've talked about in this thread to make me think the way I do about our situation today. If I can find any articles or information about this I'll be sure to post it.
Posted By: Valentein Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 04:36 AM
I'm glad I gave up on reading/posting on politics thread on the Oracle. My life is so much happier.
Posted By: 5050 Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 01:09 PM
And this is exactly why there should be a change to how bills are handled that would NOT allow any riders (they now call them earmarks) to any bill at all... each and every piece of proposed legislation should stand on its own merits... of course Congress would have to do a little more work but then again that is what they are paid to do... Want that bridge to the middle of nowhere for your constituency... better convince some others to vote for it then as opposed to burying it in an important bill.
Posted By: Jonus Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 04:57 PM
Quote:

I'm glad I gave up on reading/posting on politics thread on the Oracle. My life is so much happier.




Don't worry. It'll pull you back. I predict the resurrection of the Politics Forum as the elections near.
Posted By: Owain Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 06:40 PM
Don't remind me. Almost a year and a half to the next election, and we are already having Presidential debates.

Lord, give me strength...
Posted By: BoSllBibliotequa Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 08:55 PM
shit whoops, I meant radical Islam.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 05/02/07 09:21 PM
"but a professor at the school I was at up until last semester was explaining "

That was your first mistake.
Posted By: Crimthan Re: What a load of crap! - 05/03/07 02:25 AM
Quote:

"but a professor at the school I was at up until last semester was explaining "

That was your first mistake.




LOL, that's exactly what I thought.

Ok, now off to my bro's wedding.
Posted By: Derid Re: What a load of crap! - 05/03/07 03:47 AM

Interesting comments regarding Academia...

TBH such distrust and hatred of Academia isnt healthy. Should I also mention the so called "Patriot Act" that some here seem so fond of was largly written by a teaching prof. named Veit Dinh? There are also plenty of instances of conservative profs.

Heck I remember one prof I had in particular, a philosophy prof as a matter of fact, who was not only very rational intelligent, and open ideologically in his classroom who was
a member of Christian organizations. He was also fairly conservative in his private views. I also had some more liberal professors as well ofc.

However the idea that Academia is some sort of bastion of ignorance, or even liberalism is fairly erronious. Or rather, to say it is "only" a bastion of liberalism would be quite false, there is an enormous spectrum of thought on a great many campuses.

And honestly, most profs I have encountered have been reasonably intelligent or better, and often very well informed. Quite often extremely well informed and researched, especially where their subjects were concerned.

Most of them encouraged disagreement and open thought, as long as such was backed by good logic and expressed well, and utilized available facts. Because that is their job - to help develop those capabilities in their students.

Sure, there are exceptions. Academia also has its share of issues and problems in different places, like any other institution. That doesnt make it worthless. Far from it.
Posted By: Helemoto Re: What a load of crap! - 05/03/07 10:06 PM
"Heck I remember one prof I had in particular, a philosophy prof as a matter of fact, who was not only very rational intelligent, and open ideologically in his classroom who was
a member of Christian organizations. He was also fairly conservative in his private views. I also had some more liberal professors as well ofc."

For me and alot of people I know have had very bad times with agenda profs. The ones that are bound to make you see it thier way or you were to suffer. No amount of complaining to higher ups helped.

BTW being open minded is usually a oneway street for most people. I have heard countless people say they were but could not even come close to it.

The most problems I have had are with profs that cant just teach but preach. These young kids come in with skulls full of mush and they are open game for the first prof that can get his/her claws in them.

Derid you seem to get it. Granted I dont agree with all you belive but thats .
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