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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: sinij
For every story like this, you can find dozen where a guy pulls a gun in a drunken argument, shoots someone then goes to pound-me-in-the-ass for 20 to life.

I took your advice and, assuming events unfolded as portrayed in the clearly biased article you posted and forgiving that no one appears to be going to prison, you appear to be short 11 articles.


So you support jumping black guys for no good reason and shooting them in "self defense" as a valid use of firearms?


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Clearly you can see that in the forth word of my third sentence...


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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Cheerio
are we playing this game again? appeals to emotion are fallacies. anecdotes are not evidence.


You might want to re-read first post that started this thread.


ahh i see. but since this thread has evolved into a theoretical discussion we were past all that


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Originally Posted By: Kaotic


I see. Well, you are not doing it right.


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"On that day in 1997, Woodham slit his mother's throat "

Proof positive the gun isn't the issue here. Rather a disturbed individual. Regardless of the tool used, the results are the same. Is killing ten in cold blood really that much more horrific than killing a single individual the same way ?

This argument never even sees the light of day had he:

1) Ran over a group of them in his vehicle
2) Set off an IED ( or several ) in a crowded area of the school
3) Poisoned / contaminated the food / water
4) Burned the entire facility to the ground
5) Introduce some chemical ( aerosol form ) to the AC air intakes
6) Insert your own creative Improvised WMD here . . . . .

Any one of which would easily kill multitudes of people yet, somehow, we're still trying to blame the gun :|

Eventually, you realize the firearm isn't the problem here. It's just an easy solution for the non-creative problem children that exist within civilized society. Humans have been killing each other for thousands of years and we've become pretty good at it. Take away the gun and our species will simply find another means to make it happen. It's what we have done since we started throwing rocks at each other. Hell, even the games we play are predicated upon killing each other.

Taking away the tool doesn't solve the underlying problem. You have to take it on at the source, which is far more difficult to do. Thus, do so many simply choose what they perceive to be the easy fix of trying to justify the banning of firearms.

The idea is ludicrous. Taking a potential weapon away from a psycho doesn't fix the damaged mind. It simply postpones the carnage until the psycho can find another tool for the job.

Until you start removing psychos from society, your efforts will be in vain I'm afraid.


Last edited by Daye; 03/18/12 07:44 PM.
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PDF -Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Quote:
After we adjusted for confounding factors,
individuals who were in possession of a gun
were 4.46 (95% confidence interval [CI]=1.16,
17.04) times more likely to be shot in an assault
than those not in possession. Individuals who
were in possession of a gun were also 4.23
(95% CI=1.19, 15.13) times more likely to be
fatally shot in an assault. In assaults where the
victim had at least some chance to resist,
individuals who were in possession of a gun
were 5.45 (95% CI=1.01, 29.92) times more
likely to be shot.


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*chuckle*

I promise you if your mugger / assailant / whatever learns you have no means to trump their advantage over you, they will not play fair and put their advantage away. Be it numbers, skill, strength, or a weapon.

Those numbers are also predicated on a single assumption:

That someone who has a weapon pointed at them will curl up into a little ball on the ground while chanting the " Take anything you want, just don't hurt me " mantra.

If you decide you're not going to be the easy victim and decide to go on the offensive ( odds be damned ) then you're just as likely to be shot as you would if you were armed.

Unless you're the baddest ass bad-ass to walk this planet, you need something to tip the odds in your favor because it's likely you're going to be taken by surprise when something happens.

These days, folks will kill you just because they want the shoes you have on, the phone you're carrying, or the car you're driving. They might target your home, your family, or even your neighbors.

Father is ex-police, brother is active duty US Marshall. I get a better than average insight as to just how shitty the world can really be. All you have to do is watch the US News and you'll see story after story of:

X persons were raped
X persons were murdered
X folks have gone missing
X folks were robbed / assaulted / homeinvasion / carjacked
X drug smugglers in a shootout at the border

I'll take my chances with being 4x more likely of being shot during an assault. Because with that risk, the assailant also runs a MUCH larger risk to their own life. Odds of their survival go way down if they pick a target who carries a weapon and knows how to use it.

Ever hear of your typical thug trying to rob a police station ? You know why right ? Because GUNS live there. Thugs typically prey on those they think they can bend to their will. If everyone carried a weapon, a criminal career would be nigh-suicidal.

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A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"




Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.




in 1976, the Washington, D.C. City Council passed a law generally prohibiting residents from possessing handguns and requiring that all firearms in private homes be (1) kept unloaded and (2) rendered temporally inoperable via disassembly or installation of a trigger lock. The law became operative on Sept. 24

* On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, struck down this law as unconstitutional.

During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.





In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.


* In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.

* In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.

Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the British homicide rate has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.





* In 1982, the city of Chicago instituted a ban on handguns. This ban barred civilians from possessing handguns except for those registered with the city government prior to enactment of the law. The law also specified that such handguns had to be re-registered every two years or owners would forfeit their right to possess them. In 1994, the law was amended to require annual re-registration.


* In the wake of Chicago's handgun ban, at least five suburbs surrounding Chicago instituted similar handgun bans. When the Supreme Court overturned the District of Columbia's handgun ban in June 2008, at least four of these suburbs repealed their bans.

* In June 2010, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled (5-4) that Chicago's ban is unconstitutional.

Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.

Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.

* In 2005, 96% of the firearm murder victims in Chicago were killed with handguns




A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends.





On October 1, 1987, Florida's right-to-carry law became effective.

* This law requires that concealed carry licensees be 21 years of age or older, have clean criminal/mental health records, and complete a firearms safety/training course.

* As of July 31, 2010, Florida has issued 1,825,143 permits and has 746,430 active licensees,[105] constituting roughly 5.4% of the state's population that is 21 years of age or older.

Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 15% lower.

From the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law through July 31, 2010, Florida has revoked 5,674 or 0.3% of all issued permits. Of these:

• 522 permits were revoked for crimes committed prior to licensure

• 4,955 permits were revoked for crimes committed after licensure, of which 168 involved the usage of a firearm.






* In January 1996, Texas's right-to-carry law became effective.

* This law requires that concealed carry licensees be at least 21 years of age (or 18 years of age if a member or veteran of the U.S. armed forces), have clean criminal/mental health records, and complete a handgun proficiency course.

* In 2009, Texas had 402,914 active licensees,constituting roughly 2.4% of the state's population that is 21 years of age or older.

*Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 28% lower




*In 2007, there were roughly 15,698 emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents, constituting 0.05% of 27.7 million emergency room visits for non-fatal accidents that year.

* These emergency room visits for non-fatal firearm accidents resulted in 5,045 hospitalizations, constituting 0.4% of 1.4 million non-fatal accident hospitalizations that year






Last edited by Helemoto; 03/23/12 06:09 PM.
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Originally Posted By: sinij
PDF -Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Quote:
individuals who were in possession of a gun
were 4.46 times more likely to be shot in an assault
than those not in possession.




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I would personally like to thank a concealed carrier. He saved me from going to jail.

At work this guy started a barfight. After breaking it up and throwing him out he threw several punches at my face which I was lucky enough to dodge and then reciprocate knocking the douche down and stepping on his neck until he could no longer breathe. I was fully intent on killing this man but his brother was kind enough to pull a gun from his truck and quickly show me the error in my logic.

Thankfully he did not shoot me but it was enough to get my attention. He was not however prepared for my rebuttal to having a gun pointed at me.

I shit you not several people told me during my few seconds of hulking out that I yelled at that guy to "Shoot me or I would eat your breakfast" which has to be one of the greatest things I have ever yelled at someone although it was at the worst possible time imaginable.

Edit: I now understand how some may think I am slightly irrational at times.

Last edited by Donkleaps; 03/25/12 10:47 AM.

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