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Joined: Nov 2005
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Nah I dont get offended, or think the world will change. Just trying to prod this into a more interesting direction of conversation or get you to bust out some reasoning.

Kind of behind today, will post more later. And mostly, I do it cause im bored and it can be more interesting that link surfing.


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Originally Posted By: Derid

Nah I dont get offended, or think the world will change. Just trying to prod this into a more interesting direction of conversation or get you to bust out some reasoning.

Kind of behind today, will post more later. And mostly, I do it cause im bored and it can be more interesting that link surfing.


/agree


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Bored????

DFO YEAH!


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You are telling me that a law passed that has 3k pages, and no one even said they read it all, is good?????

Nancy Pelosi said "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!

The government doesn't save money they take and spend money.

You need to get off your Democrats only do good band wagon and if nothing else listen to what Derid is saying.

As for a flat tax you have it at say 15% for all and dont raise it based on how much you make or its not a flat tax.

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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are telling me that a law passed that has 3k pages, and no one even said they read it all, is good?????

Nancy Pelosi said "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!

The government doesn't save money they take and spend money.

You need to get off your Democrats only do good band wagon and if nothing else listen to what Derid is saying.

As for a flat tax you have it at say 15% for all and dont raise it based on how much you make or its not a flat tax.


This is so true in many ways !!


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Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.

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I did the independent contractor thing for a few years before I met Morlander.

That shit sucks. They pay seems great till you have to pay your taxes in... then it just blows.. made my income back down to minimum wage.

I wont do that again. as for Health coverage.. I am one of those uninsured.. but I dont want Obamacare either. I would rather pay the insane hospital and dr bills.


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If everyone had to pay their taxes monthly instead of their employer doing it for them, there would be a lot of changes.

If I had to write a check to the government from my personal checking account for 500-1k every month I would be a lot more vocal then I am now.

But thats the little trick they do so you dont even know.

Also most people have no idea how much a company pays extra just to employ us. If a guy makes 15 bucks an hour that translates to the employer paying upwards of 22-23 bucks an hour, possibly more as I am not a employer I am a poor working man.

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Thats a really good point Helemoto, and one that constantly frustrates me when I chat with people about these sorts of things. So few people have much of a clue as to how expensive it is, and also how much liability there is in regards to employing folk.

One more unintended side effect of Obamacare - expect to see an even more pervasive " Perma Temp " underclass grow.

There is already a large underclass fo folk who are basically permanent temps... each time the govt adds costs and regulations this group of people grows.

I know a guy who worked as a manager at one of the big temp agencies. Now, keep in mind this was 5 years or so ago I got these numbers, but if a company paid a temp agency 13-14/hr, then the employee hired would typically make about 9/hr. Sounds like a big difference eh? That the employee is getting ripped off?

Apparently, the agency margins are really low though. Most of that differential goes to workmans comp, unemployment insurance, taxes, fees, etc.

Paying the small extra margins to the agencies is a good deal for companies though, because it helps shield them from liability and reduces their own paperwork load.

Expect to see a huge surge in 29 hour a week temps in 2014. The irony is the vast majority of those people will look to Obama to help them, as they are poor and Obama "helps" the poor, seldom realizing that Obama is largely responsible for their plight.


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Originally Posted By: Ebola
Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.


Quick question. Do you have auto insurance that the government MADE you purchase?


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