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So what I get out of Jet is that only Republicans run the large companys and Republicans are the only rich people in the country.
So only Republicans run the country because of all the money they give to politicians, so Democrats are run by Republicans cause they took money from Big Companys that are only owned by Republicans.

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Oh one more important one!
FRONTLINE: Inside the Meltdown

Here are the facts from the players themselves on how the financial meltdown came about and who did, why did, and what was done about it.


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So how is this the Republicans fault I dont get it?????

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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
So how is this the Republicans fault I dont get it?????


Watch the programs. You will understand.

This is not a love fest for Obama by any means (Healthcare). In fact it is largely critical of how it went down.


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An Iraqi General - George Sadas who was apparently "number 2" in Iraq's air force - is claiming that Saddam moved his WMD's into Syria by loading them into stripped out civilian air craft and flying them across the border.

One thing that often gets overlooked when the case for war with Iraq is debated is that while it is clear that our intelligence on Saddam's WMD's was clearly wrong that fact does not necessarily imply that Saddam didn't have any WMD's. We know, for a fact, that at one time Saddam did have chemical and biological weapons. He used some of them, both on his own people and during wars with other middle eastern nations. Unfortunately, many political opportunists and media pundits have chosen to spin the fact that we haven't found any WMD's in Iraq into Saddam never having them. Which just isn't true.

He had them. We know that. What we don't know is where they went before we got into Iraq, or even how long they'd been gone by the time we arrived. There are a lot of theories, of course, as to where they went and how. Sadas' claims sound about as reasonable as any of them.

One day we may even know for sure.

I remember watching a video of a spy plane following the UN inspectors around, before the war, they watched as they were held up for hours as another plane watched the location they were going to and watched trucks back up and get loaded up and driven away.
Only after the trucks left where the inspectors allowed to go the the location.

Last edited by Helemoto; 11/17/10 03:12 PM.
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Jet, how is health care being for profit a conflict of interest?

If that is the case, why should farming be for profit - people also need to eat. Why should textile manufacturing be for profit, people need clothes. Why should construction be for profit, people need shelter.

I fail to see how stealing from me, or anyone, simply because other people "need" something can be just, or productive in the long term.

These things do not just appear, though in a 10 trillion dollar economy , they may take on the "illusion" of just "happening". But real people have to expend their life's time, effort, and often considerable risk to achieve the production of all these things, health care included.

Why should they not attempt to use their skills and efforts to create a better life for themselves, their families, and their own goals. Who is anyone to say that our lives should be forcibly spent for the betterment of "others".

What is that, if not a form of slavery? The only real difference between this type of Socialism and real slavery, is that the producers of society are given the option to simply not produce. " Who is John Galt? "

Also, British health care sucks ass by all accounts. If the govt says a procedure, even a life saving one is not "covered" you are left with 3 options.

1. ) die

2. ) get rich quickly, and goto the USA for real treatment

3. ) goto India, or other lightly regulated nation for cheap health care. Which is causing all sorts of medical issues, including the spread of a new strain of superbugs that no antibiotic will work against.

Britain is largely Socialist, and has been economically, culturally, and socially stagnant because of it. Germany is finally starting to get a clue, soon the leftist state of Europe will be waking up to the fact that "progressive" ideals are largely a failure... see Greece, and Ireland. California itself is a good case in point against govt zeal. If the rest of the country was run like California, I guarantee we would not be having a discussion, because we would all only have electricity a couple hours a day... unless we imported it from Mexico, anyhow.


Anyhow, there is not one historical example to be found, where increasing regulation, wealth re-distribution and govt economic management and distribution has worked. Not one.

In every case you can find from Rome to the Ottomans to modern European nations, these types of steps and this whole school of thought - be it enacted under the name of Socialism or similar policies enacted under monarchies - increasing govt stranglehold on economic activity and increased wealth distribution have to nothing but more misery, corruption, and societal failure.

There is "one" exception that proves the rule - and that is when a govt is in possesion of large quantities of natural resource that are desired far and wide. Like oil.

But MArgaret Thatcher was 100% correct that " The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money to spend". By extension you can count a natural resource, in a fashion, as "other peoples money". Or more aptly put " wealth that exists but you did not create".

In a way, such countries and civilizations are the anti-socialist poster children of the world. Because we all know what happens to each and every one of them when the Oil/Gold/Diamonds/etc run out.

Other peoples money, and/or natural resources can pay for a lot of bread and circus, but they cannot do it indefinitely. Good intentions, do not necessarily create good policy.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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Derid,

It is more profitable for Insurance companies to NOT cover the sickest people. If you get real sick, you lose.

The world health organization ranks us 37th in Health Care:
Quote:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


I fail to see how this is stealing from anyone. You dont complain about paying for Medicare in every paycheck? I don't hear you mention that.

As for this notion of wealth re-distribution, the tax rate on the richest Americans is way lower than it has been in the past:

1918: The top rate was in fact 77%, as the chart said, because tax rates were raised in order to help pay for World War I. Tax rates started to fall in the years afterwards.

1932: Rates had been falling the past few years until 1932 when the top rate was 63% (if you think this is bad, wait until the US was deep into World War II). This rate increased in the years leading up to and including World War II.

1945: 94% tax on income over $200,000 – absolutely astounding. It stayed over 90% until 1964 when it was lowered to 77% and had been consistently falling.

2010:
Tax Bracket - Single ------ Married Filing Jointly
10% Bracket - $0 – $8,375 - $0 – $16,750
15% Bracket - $8,375 – $34,000 - $16,750 – $68,000
25% Bracket - $34,000 – $82,400 - $68,000 – $137,300
28% Bracket - $82,400 – $171,850 - $137,300 – $209,250
33% Bracket - $171,850 – $373,650 - $209,250 – $373,650
35% Bracket - $373,650+ - $373,650+

Based on these facts, your arguements just dont hold water. The term "Wealth redistribution" is just right wing propaganda. I certainly never heard that back when in 1945 through 1964.


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Flat Tax!!

No Exemptions.

No Married Status.

Everyone files separately.

Under $44,000 = 0%

$44,000-$70,000 = 9%

$70,000 - $150,000 = 16%

$150,000 - $210,000 = 21%

$210,000 and over = 26%

Its not wealth distribution, its called fair taxation with due representation...


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Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Flat Tax!!

No Exemptions.

No Married Status.

Everyone files separately.

Under $44,000 = 0%

$44,000-$70,000 = 9%

$70,000 - $150,000 = 16%

$150,000 - $210,000 = 21%

$210,000 and over = 26%

Its not wealth distribution, its called fair taxation with due representation...


/agree


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Honestly, its not about propoganda - I come to my conclusions by looking not at bits and pieces out of context, but examining the social and economic structures from which these events and phenominae sprout.

Also, something you should take note of - are the criteria used by the WHO to come up with these lists. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow I will take a look and unravel that WHO list in detail.

Saying that the top rates were higher in years past to pay for wars is also somewhat disingenuous, as noone will argue that taxing to pay for necessary national defense is in any way equivalent to "social redistribution of wealth". You are comparing apples and oranges, and that line of attack does not hold merit.

Another thing to remember, is that comparable with the lowering of tax rates on upper incomes - is the level at which new "rich folk" are made. IE: the more people are allowed to keep of their own money, the more people there are who come to have more money. If anything you have helped prove an important point held dear by fiscal conservatives.

And yet another angle to examine, is quality of living across classes.

But anyhow, you should recant that line of argument - and come up with a line of reasoning extolling high tax rates that does not involve using said taxes to pay for World Wars.

Besides, all lowering those rates did was help encourage the middle and upper middle classes. Truly wealthy folk have always had many means of hiding said wealth from the taxman, and that has not changes. Tycoons of old simply lived high on the hog on "company assets". Wining and dining were, and are, legit "business expenses".

Please explain which of my positions, other than that WHO chart, which I will address later once I find out what they are actually measuring, that tax argument was meant to annul.

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