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The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Saving America?

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Re: Saving America? Lenny #15919 03/01/07 05:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,929 Donk's gf's house Crimthan KGB Supreme Knight
Crimthan KGB Supreme Knight Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,929 Donk's gf's house	Quote: On a side note, there was discussion on travel and then you will see how great america is. That is the most retarded thing i have ever heard in my life. Just like Slinger, you only read what you wanted to read about this. Myself, along with one or two others posted that if you travel around the world, you will come to appreciate things about America AND also come to find more about America's faults. Nowhere did someone state that you'd see that America is infallible by seeing the rest of the world.

Re: Saving America? Owain #15920 03/01/07 09:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6 Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court
Derid Chief Justice KGB Supreme Court Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,653 Likes: 6	Quote: Owain: There is a trade off between the rights of the individual, and the general welfare of society. If you think people telling me how to regulate smoking in my establishment has much to do with the general welfare of society, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Individuals make their own choices on whether or not to subject themselves to my second hand smoke. My decision how to run my pub has no real effect, if anything its the aggregate decisions of others who choose to come to my pub that have the effects. Given the scenario that I am not the one actually blowing smoke in my patron's faces, I am being punished without merit, by using legal means to drive away my patronage, and my livlihood. What about the negative consequences of so many failed business, jobs lost, and missing tax revenue from those businesses? The human toll of anti-smoking measues has been great indeed. Quote: In addition, some communities have decided that since this is a public business, smoking is not permitted since it is not in the best interest of the public. We are all aware that people have concocted a grand misconception that privite property where the public is allowed or invited, is in fact public property. As for the the travelling issue, I have to agree to a point. There is nothing bad to be said about travelling the world. In fact I sorely wish I was in a position to do more of it. But one does not need to see the rest of the world, to understand principles. It is not any one particular thing that causes me such concern, its the fact that these examples represent the deterioration of the founding principles of this nation. The thing that scares me, is actually an aggregate of 3 different aspects... that while each aspect in of themselves may not be deadly serious, the 3 combined represent the ultimate long-term threat to republican democracy and free society. 1) The idea that individual needs and desires do not matter vs the needs and desires of "society", up to and including managing the indivudual for his "own good" because he is part of society. This aspect can be seen in everything from anti-smoking legislation to gun control to the recent use of Eminent Domain to secure private lands for private development, so tht big business can aquire good commercial lands from unwilling people at a fraction of the cost. 2) Expansion of Govenrmental power, into such things as domestic spying, suspending Habeus Corpus, secret lists and assessments, secret detentions of american citizens (I dont care about foreign terror suspects rights, but american citizens in America should be treated constitutionally) , lack of and avoidence of meaningfull judicial or congressional oversight. etc. 3) A population laid complacent by fear, or plain apathy. Willingness to take our shoes off, and show our papers upon demand, and support wars without question for fear of being labelled unpatriotic (supporting the troops, and supporting the political decision to engage in war are 2 totaly different things), a citizenry who is looking overmuch for governmental protection out of a "fear" response resulting in loss of good reasoning ability. Most of the examples I listed, taken alone, represent not much of signifigance. No smoking is not the end of the world, the NSA trying to look for a terrorist while skipping a couple FISA warrents is not in itself a toppling of the Constitution, a temporary fear response, especially to people in say NYC could be quite understandable. Its the underlying principles here, and the convergence that is so worrying. No, I do not necesarrily think its any Grand Conspiracy with shadow Illuminatti pulling the strings, or anything like that. Honestly, such a thing is not needed to bring a bad result. And if it was the case, then nothing the voting public could do would make a difference anyhow. I do think it represents a loss of the understanding of principle, on behalf of the general public. People look at issues, in a very narrow light much of the time. While determining how bad a Gov't spying program is, many are for example asking themselves how it is likely to immediatly effect them personally, while paying little or no attention to the long-term ramifications of having a small secret group of people who are in a position to glean the hidden knowledge about everyone from businessmen to politicians, let alone the basic fundamental question of whether its good principle for the Gov't to assume that role in any occasion. While determining whether we should show our "papers" to travel, we forget that its not proof of identity, its only proof of having an ID card with a picture and name on it. Is it really so great to be scutinized by lists and secret evaluations? Do they really stop terrorism? When we pass anti smoking, or anti transfat or socialized healthcare legislation... do we really think its good principle for the government to be assuming control of our daily lives? Of our own bodies? I encourage people to examine things not from the standpoint of "what will the immediate ramifications be", but to examine the precedent they are setting by embracing poor principles. The argument " its for the public good vs the private good" is the same argument people will be making down the road to utilize NSA data to "health police" people, and micromanage their lives. The argument about "proving your identity to travel" is the same argument people will be making for bio-chips to be implanted. After all, there are many ostensible benifits to having everyone carrying such a thing embedded in their flesh right? Especially since some will be saying if you are not monitored 24/7 and authenticated with a biochip and dna records.... you "might be a terrorist, how else can we know? Its for public safety". At no time in history when the 3 aspects of "society, not individuals are what matter", " power to the government " and " public fear " haved waxed in concordance, has there ever been a good result. EVER.* The time to recognize these trends, and speak out against them is now. Not tommorow, not in 10 years, but now. It is not to late, and one of the great things about the USoA is that we do have the right to speak up and speak out. Communist Chinese do not have that right, it is far worse elsewhere. Which means we should guard and protect what we do have, with utmost diligence. The price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance. We have been a little sleepy at the wheel lately, but by no means is it to late to smack ourselves on the cheek a couple times, and wake back up. --------------------------------------------------------- footnote: I was initially against the Iraq war, having thought at the time that it made little sense, that Iran would be the true winner, that were no WMDs of consequence and that containment was a good solution that had worked. I spoke out against it publically at the time, and I think, unfortunatly, history has vindicated this view. However the only thing worse than an ill-advised war, is losing an ill-advised war and as such support McCains line of thought in getting it under control, and won. I certainly do not support some Democrats in cutting funding to the troops, and denying them weapons or supplies. We should either be playing to win with everything we've got over there, or we should come home. Anything in-between is bad peinciple, and foolhardy in the extreme, and unnecesarrily dangerous to the soldiers who are fighting. Just wanted to clear that up ahead of time.

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