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#147467 01/21/22 12:57 PM
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Apparently in New York, Armed robbery is now a misdemeanor. But if a 9 year old goes into a museum without a vaccination card. They get arrested. This should go under the "Tell me you're stupid, without telling me you're stupid"
https://twitter.com/yael_becker/status/1484196546358956032?s=20

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Where is evidence armed robbery a misdemeanor? And the 'freedomtvnews' isn't really inspiring as a source. So I even watched the video, but nothing was said about vaccine except the people who background who were saying things like 'experimental gene therapy'

Where were her parents? Seems like it is far more likely that the kid was put in the cruiser because she was out in the city by herself, looks pretty late. Have to wonder if the kid wasnt even put up to it by the tweeter so they could rack up views and incite people.

Without context you can make anything sound like whatever you want, there was no evidence for the claims made in that video.


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This seems to be the full story dealing with the 9 year old.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...museum-refusing-COVID-vaccine-cards.html

Under the new DA's policy. They have reduced armed robbery. I'm certain that Policy won't stick around long.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...tan-das-reform-policies-sources/3491736/

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So from the dailymail..
"Jayla was part of group affiliated with New York Freedom Rally, which has been staging protests against vaccine mandate throughout NYC"

So a bunch of left-wing anarchists brought a child, and were all arrested. So the kid had to be detained. Those are some shitty people bringing a kid that young to their little event. Apparently scoring social media hits and manufacturing outrage is more important to them than the well being of the child.

I say left-wing, because if they were conservatives they would respect the ability of establishments to set rules. Don't follow the rules, don't be there. It was the adults who were arrested for what appears to be tresspassing, though whether that is the actual charge is unknown - but it is pretty clear that if you don't follow the rules of a place and are asked to leave and don't its tresspassing. Obviously the kid couldn't be left to fend for herself. I dont even know if the most extreme ANTIFA bombthrowers have ever towed little kids along with them to generate social media hits.

Whether the NY DA policies otherwise make sense or not is another question, and even if they are as the Dailymail makes them out to be, doesn't change the fact that the protestors here were the ones being dipshits.

So if you owned or were managing an establishment, and people were breaking the rules and you asked them to leave - what should happen? From what I can tell, it's owned and operated by a 501c3 non-profit not even the gov't so its private property.


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While I don't think Wolfgang is factually correct, the underlying point - that in a Democrat-controlled areas COVID related infractions are treated more seriously by law enforcement than actual crimes - is fundamentally valid.


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Originally Posted by Derid
I say left-wing, because if they were conservatives they would respect the ability of establishments to set rules.

Complete lack of nuance make this statement superficially true but fundamentally false.

When establishment creates arbitrary rules and selectively enforces them, then not following such rules is a reasonable response. It is called civil disobidience and engaging in it does not make one left-wing.


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"Don't willfully endanger other guests of our establishment if you want to be welcome" is hardly an arbitrary rule. Whether it is selectively enforced is unknown to any party.

In any case, it was a rhetorical device employed to point out that there is little to no practical difference between the group featured in discussion and other groups, that said group self-identifies as being a polar opposite and tends to vocally despise.

One reason spheres are apt descriptors of idealogical spectrum is that is you travel far enough in one direction, you end up on the opposite side.


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Maybe I am not sufficently familiar with the story. What exactly was done that would consitute "willfuly endanger other guests" ?


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Originally Posted by Derid
One reason spheres are apt descriptors of idealogical spectrum is that is you travel far enough in one direction, you end up on the opposite side.

My key objection to your statement can be summarized as "anti-authoritorian != left-wing". At least not for the past 50 years.


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Originally Posted by Sini
While I don't think Wolfgang is factually correct, the underlying point - that in a Democrat-controlled areas COVID related infractions are treated more seriously by law enforcement than actual crimes - is fundamentally valid.

This is not established. It would be more accurate to say "in some Democratic controlled areas, it appears as though COVID related infraction may be taken more seriously"

As a practical matter, the example given likely has nothing to do with COVID and everything to due with location. In pretty much any big city I have been to, making a scene at a tourist attraction, especially one in a nice part of town is likely to garner a rapid response from authorities.

Had said anarchists decided to go endanger the public and their children in some shithole establishment in the slums, local precint would probably have not been quite so on top of it. Which is itself a problem, but not one that is really related to COVID.

The question here is how were the authorities supposed to react? How is the museum supposed to handle these types of people? Also noticed the demonstrators weren't even wearing masks. So, ignoring science for a moment and just going on what the establishment believes- that having unvacinnated, unmasked people unduly endangers their staff and other guests - or even that the establishment recognises that unvaccinated, unmasked people make a large portion of their staff and *other guests feel uncomfortable - said establishment lays some ground rules.

This entire assertion in the daily mail and original twwitter twit basically revolves around the fallacy of " Democrats often do stupid shit, and I don't like COVID restrictions, and since they are more enforced in Democrat areas that means that said enforcement is also stupid"

Though I can also assert with confidence, living in a heavy GOP area, that if someone pulled that shit here with a local landmark/attraction the results would have been identical or even worse for said protestors - even if the police privately agreed with their stance on COVID restrictions. Because starting shit at tourist attractions and other places of business simply because you disagree with their policies is bad for business, which generally won't be tolerated.

Looking at the Dailymail article again, its a gold mine of telling info:

"In late December, unmasked protesters, which included the 41-year-old Bosch, barged into a Burger King in Brooklyn and were filmed yelling at staffers for refusing to serve them."

Think about that. These are known repeat offenders- and people with such disgusting personalities that they will go to a Burger King and yell at the minimum-wage cashiers. So, why should any employee at any establishment not be entitled to having the autrhorities protect them from these kinds of asshats?


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Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Derid
One reason spheres are apt descriptors of idealogical spectrum is that is you travel far enough in one direction, you end up on the opposite side.

My key objection to your statement can be summarized as "anti-authoritorian != left-wing". At least not for the past 50 years.


I don't classify these people as anti-authoritarian, quite often these types are actually very authoritarian - they just make exceptions for excercise of authority they personally dislike. In any case, I still consider these demonstrations very pro-authoritarianism because they fundamentally assert that the rights of others are secondary to their own personal opinions. In their view, the rights of property owners are secondary to their their own personal opinions and desires, giving them the right to harass people and tresspass until they get their way.

Noted that you object to the rhetoric, I think the subtext that these people are pretty similar in many regards to what they purport to hate still stands. Largely because I don't think these folks even have a coherent idealogy beyond the theatrics of outrage. I don't think a thorogough examination of their overall belief spectrum would reliably place them as left or right, just attention-seekers who like chaos and confrontation. Though I also view many who self-identify with the far left in the same light.


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Originally Posted by Derid
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Derid
One reason spheres are apt descriptors of idealogical spectrum is that is you travel far enough in one direction, you end up on the opposite side.

My key objection to your statement can be summarized as "anti-authoritorian != left-wing". At least not for the past 50 years.


I don't classify these people as anti-authoritarian, quite often these types are actually very authoritarian - they just make exceptions for excercise of authority they personally dislike.

This might as well be the case, but in this specific example we are discussing, the behaviour is clearly a civil disobidience against unreasonble infractions of personal freedoms. Which is anti-authoritorian behaviour.

Originally Posted by Derid
I still consider these demonstrations very pro-authoritarianism because they fundamentally assert that the rights of others are secondary to their own personal opinions. In their view, the rights of property owners are secondary to their their own personal opinions and desires, giving them the right to harass people and tresspass until they get their way.

In this specific example, the American Museum of Natural History would likely be considered public space. More so, your argument presupposes that any property owner neccessary agrees with mandates and enforces them without being compelled to do so by the state.


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Originally Posted by Sini
This might as well be the case, but in this specific example we are discussing, the behaviour is clearly a civil disobidience against unreasonble infractions of personal freedoms. Which is anti-authoritorian behaviour.

How is not being allowed to wander about unmasked and unvaccinated in a private establishment either an infraction of their personal freedom, or unreasonable?

Originally Posted by Sini
In this specific example, the American Museum of Natural History would likely be considered public space. More so, your argument presupposes that any property owner neccessary agrees with mandates and enforces them without being compelled to do so by the state.

It does not, it only requires that the establishment chooses to enforce said mandates in compliance with what they believe are their legal obligations. The reasons are immaterrial, even if the sole reason for enforcing restrictions were based on compliance with percieved legal obligations. There are caveats there if said obligations were inhumane, immoral, etc. But that isn't the case here.

Had said protestors been arrested for standing outside of City Hall with signs and/or chanting, etc, I'd possibly share in the outrage. Instead they chose to trespass repeatedly and make life difficult for others and put them at risk. Even if their cause were just, and they had moral high ground - which they can claim neither - they are still targetting the wrong people, and appear to be doing so in a manner of which they would be asked to leave and then forcibly removed no matter the nature of their complaint.

So again, looking at it from the side of the poor folks working at the establishments they target - how are they supposed to deal with it? Change the rules, or neglect to enforce them simply because people show up and refuse to comply? Because they yell and get nasty?


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Originally Posted by Derid
How is not being allowed to wander about unmasked and unvaccinated in a private establishment either an infraction of their personal freedom, or unreasonable?

Is the American Museum of Natural History a private establishment? I am asking, because I don't know. I suspect it is government-funded. Regardless, being denied access is infraction of personal freedom, the only question if it is justified.

It is unreasonable because benefits of these mandates could not be shown to exceed the costs they impose. We now know that neither vaccines nor cloth masks prevent spread of Omicron. So what possible justification of known to be ineffective measures could you have?

Can you demonstrate that a scenario where these people met the minimum level of compliance (cloth mask and 1-shot of J&J 12 months ago) is materially safer for other patrons than what transpired?

Originally Posted by Derid
It does not, it only requires that the establishment chooses to enforce said mandates in compliance with what they believe are their legal obligations. The reasons are immaterrial

Is it so? Mandate needs to be reasonable for establishment enforcing it to be reasonable. Otherwise "just following orders" applies.


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My quick investigation indicated the museam was owned and operated by a 501c3 nonprofit, so yes private. It's not operated by the gov't, though it is possible it gets gov't subsidies of some sort. Which in this case would incentivize the establishment to follow guidelines.

I do not consider being able to do whatever you feel like doing on someone elses property a legitmate right.

Conversely, I'd point to the quote in my signature here: "For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57) "

In this discourse, the protestors are "every other man"

It is simply not their place to vent their ire against COVID restrictions at someone elses place of business, nor their right. They have the right to open their own establishment, and perform civil disobience there - or to do so on public lands in a manner where they are not spreading plague to bystanders. (ie: a protest at a DMV would not be proper) Refusing to mask in public when asked, is simply asserting their supposed right to spread disease and denying other people of the freedom to enjoy public venues with less risk of catching dangerous illness.

The fact that Omicron is more contagious than previous strains makes rules requiring certain levels of contagion mitigation on behalf of patrons even more reasonable, not less - the fact that said rules do not go far enough to eliminate possibility of spread notwithstanding.

There are no rights or freedoms at play here, aside from the rights and freedom of establishments to set and or enforce guidelines for behaviour for their patrons and have troublemakers and unruly people removed. Rights and freedoms go both ways, something most people on any 'side' of any issue tend to conveniently forget or ignore.

Though I would agree that making N95 level protection and boosters mandatory would be a better step. I would also agree that if the protestors opened their own establishment for anti-vax anti-maskers to congregate and the police came and arrested them in that context that it would be overreach, and their refusal to comply might qualify as legitimate civil disobedience.

Also, given that people are literally dying because they cannot get a bed at hospitals that are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients, setting some minimum requirements for contagion mitigation seems like a reasonable public policy. As long as the antivax crowd is provided with the means to perform mandatory public functions, such as govt licensing, mail, etc, there is no moral issue. As far as mask mandates, its merely a piece of clothing and has never been shown to harm the user. I can understand the philosophical reluctance of some people to get an injection, and agree that it is reasonable to defend the right of someone to reject doing so on the grounds of personal sovereinty over ones own body. But that does not imply they need be welcomed everywhere.

Masks and vaccinnation may not eliminate the spread of COVID, but they have been shown to reduce it. Better masks and more vaccinations reduce it more.


As an aside - of my biggest complaints about asshats like these people is their actions undercut the philosophical discussion about personal rights in the public sphere. They poison the well against defense of legitimate concerns regarding unvaccinated population, including people who are truly allergic, because I think most reasonable people who hear of their antics just see a bunch of asshats who haul their kids to a "lets go get arrested" party so they can loudly cry about how wronged they are when rightfully shown the door.

Just because someone isn't welcome somewhere doesn't make them a martyr, if the reason they are not welcome is based on what they do (or don't) not on what they are. And especially their actions incur additional risks to people other than themselves. If they chose to create their own spaces for unmasked, unvaccinated people to congregate among themselves - well, I'd still think they were being dipshits since they are encouraging spread of disease, but I'd still be more likely to defend their rights to do so despite the negative social consequences. By the same token, I believe that people who want less risk of disease should be free to establish their own spaces where some level of disease mitigation is required.

Last edited by Derid; 01/22/22 06:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by Derid
The fact that Omicron is more contagious than previous strains makes rules requiring certain levels of contagion mitigation on behalf of patrons even more reasonable, not less - the fact that said rules do not go far enough to eliminate possibility of spread notwithstanding.

You are engaging in motivated reasoning. Your starting point is that masks and vaccines are a public good and necessity and everything else is argued from there. I am not going to grant you this as a premise in 2022.

In 2022 we know that masks, save for N95, are ineffective. We know that vaccines do not provide sterilizing immunity and vaccinated people still transmit when infected. We know that Omicron breakthrough infections (mild - yes, but still there) are widespread. We know that Omicron is measels-level infectious. We know that there are now animal reservoirs so even if COVID 0 is somehow achived, it will re-emerge. Because of all that I can say with 100% certanty that we failed to control COVID. Even if we somehow tomorrow reach 100% boosted-vaccination and 100% masking compliance. As such, the rationale for these policies is no longer there.

As part of social contract we agree that imposing on someone’s freedoms must be both justified and kept to necessary minimum. If the society break that social contract it is just to peacefully engage in civil disobedience.

Suppose these people were protesting a mandate to wear a burqa to enter any public space. Now re-read your post from this perspective to understand my view of your response.

Last edited by Sini; 01/22/22 08:59 PM.

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Masks of any sort reduce aerosol dispertion from the breather to some extent, which reduces cloud of contagion. Vaccination reduces viral load in the host in cases of breakthrough infection, thereby also reducing window and virility of contagion to some degree. You are arguing that since something cannot be eliminated, efforts to reduce impact are pointless which does not follow. It isn't an all or nothing proposition. I think the standard to you using to register benefit is unreasonably high.


Just because mitigation does not in this case reduce impact to zero does not mean it is without benefit. What I read from your argument is that restrictions should be increased to be more effective under the current circumstance, not done away with.

A mask does not carry religious connotation, so I don't agree that it is an applicible comparison to a burqa. A better comparison would be to standard dress codes. "No shirt no shoes no service"

Why is asking someone to wear a shirt and shoes acceptable, but a mask somehow not? Not to mention benefits of masks reducing transmission of illness beyond COVID, I'm not sure how you could argue that it is fundamentally different or less impactful than shoes or shirts.


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Originally Posted by Derid
Just because mitigation does not in this case reduce impact to zero does not mean it is without benefit. What I read from your argument is that restrictions should be increased to be more effective under the current circumstance, not done away with.

You misunderstood me. I think in 2022 mantaining restrictions is fallacy of sunk costs. I did support lockdowns 2 years ago in a beleif that COVID could be contained until it could be stopped with vaccines. Both of these assumptions turned out to be false. The situation right now is different and requires re-evaluation of cost vs. benefit.

You can't keep making 2020 arguments today, you have to adjust your views to account for the new situation.

What we have right now is Iraq war, only with COVID. What is your exist plan?


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Originally Posted by Derid
A mask does not carry religious connotation, so I don't agree that it is an applicible comparison to a burqa.

It absolutely does, it is just not a traditional theistic religion.


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Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Derid
Just because mitigation does not in this case reduce impact to zero does not mean it is without benefit. What I read from your argument is that restrictions should be increased to be more effective under the current circumstance, not done away with.

You misunderstood me. I think in 2022 mantaining restrictions is fallacy of sunk costs. I did support lockdowns 2 years ago in a beleif that COVID could be contained until it could be stopped with vaccines. Both of these assumptions turned out to be false. The situation right now is different and requires re-evaluation of cost vs. benefit.

You can't keep making 2020 arguments today, you have to adjust your views to account for the new situation.

What we have right now is Iraq war, only with COVID. What is your exist plan?


We aren't talking about lockdowns though. New situation has me thinking, as I stated, that N95 class masks should probably be the benchmark. Wearing a mask does not inflict any harm on the wearer. If we find it aceptable to require people to wear a shirt that isn't see-through in public, I don't see why it is unreasonable to require masks that are effective against transmission of disease.

Exit? I think it is possible that masks will become a standard fashion accessory for the forseeable future.

I do not pretend that requiring masks will eliminate COVID. In large part because so many people refuse to do so. That being said, I'm pretty sure every reputable study has concluded that if everyone wore good masks in public and got vaccinated that COVID spread would be drastically reduced.

But I also think that masking oneself appropriately to prevent spreading illness to others is a matter of basic deceny. I therefor have no objection to legal enforcement provided that the punishment fits the crime. The 'punishment' as far as I can discern has been limited to eviction from said premises, so this seems non-problematic. If people were being jailed or massively fined for simply stepping foot somewhere, that may be different. But asking someone to leave seems like a reasonable response, and refusing to comply not reasonable unless it can be shown where their burden of compliance is somehow significant or their actual human rights are being trampled upon.

Wearing a mask lowers the chances of spreading illness to others, the better the mask the lower the chance. Being vaccinated lowers the risk of contracting disease and therefore spreading it to others, though as noted breakthrough infections are certainly a thing and people with them are certainly contagious. Still, I'd say the right of people to endure less risk to their actual safety in the public domain far outweights the desires of others to not wear a mask, or even their desire to visit public areas where the establishment requires certain measures. (regardless of whether those measures are prompted by govt)

We cannot pretend that mask wearing especially is onerous or does not make a difference.


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Originally Posted by Derid
I think it is possible that masks will become a standard fashion accessory for the forseeable future.
Use proper terminology. If they are mandatory, then they can't be fashion. Fashion implies choice.
Originally Posted by Derid
I do not pretend that requiring masks will eliminate COVID.
Then what is your justification for imposing them on others? Marginal reduction in a spread of highly infectious disease that everyone will end up getting anyways?

I can use your argument verbatim to ask for mandating daily flossing, then turn the society into police state while enforcing it. Its not the flossing that the problem in such scenario.

If masks are not a temporary measure in a time of dire emergency, then the level of justification to impose them on the population has to be on an entirely new, much higher level. I don't think marginal benefits they provide are anywhere near sufficent. More so, it is imperative that enforcement must be proportionate and measured. It is ridiclous that people would get arrested for this, when the crime is less severe than jaywalking.
Originally Posted by Derid
In large part because so many people refuse to do so.
The freedom to make bad choices is a fundamental freedom; if you are only allowed to make good choices then you have no freedom at all. I don't know why I am finding myself having to remind you of that.
Originally Posted by Derid
That being said, I'm pretty sure every reputable study has concluded that if everyone wore good masks in public and got vaccinated that COVID spread would be drastically reduced.
Faulty generalization with a touch of no true Scotsman.
In plain language - look at widespread infections amongst vaccinated, masking and socially isolating people. In my social circle (who is all vaccinated by the way) at least a third of people already had Omicron, myself included. Where I live, fully vaccination level is already at 75+%. Observable reality does not fit your narrative.
Originally Posted by Derid
But I also think that masking oneself appropriately to prevent spreading illness to others is a matter of basic deceny.
Since you are advocating for masking mandates, you are imposing your own definition of decency (i.e., morals) on others by force.

Last edited by Sini; 01/23/22 08:04 PM.

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KGB Supreme Court
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Chief Justice
KGB Supreme Court
****
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,653
Likes: 6
Originally Posted by Sini
Use proper terminology. If they are mandatory, then they can't be fashion. Fashion implies choice.

I used terminology fitting for the purpose, the point was made. If the shoe fits, wear it. Or the mask in this case.

Originally Posted by Sini
Then what is your justification for imposing them on others? Marginal reduction in a spread of highly infectious disease that everyone will end up getting anyways?

I'm not for actively policing what people do in their private establishments. You also dont know that everyone will get it, nor is it good for everyone to get it at the same time. As for justification, I'll point to same justifications used to wearing clothing at all. Arguments can be made against requiring use of clothing, but that topic has been litigated repeatedly for a very long time and its pointless. Before you can get anywhere with this line of thinking you need to make a plausible case on how wearing a mask is somehow more burdensome than wearing pants or shoes.

Originally Posted by Sini
Faulty generalization with a touch of no true Scotsman.
Observable reality does not fit your narrative.

Nope. Flawed assertion. To begin to be valid, youd need to at least relate your own experience vs a similar control. Not to mention no details on other behaviour in your example.

Originally Posted by Sini
The freedom to make bad choices is a fundamental freedom; if you are only allowed to make good choices then you have no freedom at all. I don't know why I am finding myself having to remind you of that.


Sure. But if an establishment asks them to not do it on their property, that should also be respected. Whether the government has coerced them or not. There are right and wrong ways to go about airing grievances, and harassing fast food workers when they could still get a burger by going through the drive-thru is no expression of righteousness even if you agree with their aims.

You still seem to confuse areas generally open to the public with public property, and harassing people with civil disobedience.

As far as favoring mandates, I favor ones that would have more impact.

The bottom line is that, unlike discriminating against people for what they are - asking people to wear a mask is not unjust or harmful. Some people just dont like it, and feel entitled to make trouble simply because they feel unhappy.

To pursue any of your lines of thinking with any credibility, you need to establish that the rules or actions in question are either unjust, or that the 'protestors' had some kind of legitimate moral claim on the right to set the rules at the time and place of the protest. Or at the very least that said rules do some sort of harm.

Come back when the police raid a private gathering of maskless people who weren't actively bothering anyone else, as opposed to removing a handful of entitled grievance mongers from a premisis.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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