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Joined: Apr 2003
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JetStar Offline OP
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Hello everyone.

As promised I have been looking the current issues with KGB BDO. Lets start at the beginning.

BDO is a game that many KGBers enjoyed playing. The normal ADHD KGB crew came and went early on. This left a core group of players that were recruiting all along. A new generation of KGBers came from this game.

This all sounds good, but there was an important problem. Even though the game was popular, the KGB population was not where it needed to be to take part in the best content of the game.

The population issue started a landslide that we were unable to stop. We started losing some of our top talent because of this. Former BDO High Chancellor Shock was also involved in a life event in real life. By the time we passed the torch to High Chancellor Taxman, the landslide had begun.

Originally Posted By: Taxman
Sorry for the delay in replying - I am TDY in Virginia so haven't been able to check in as often as I would like (or game as often either).

Indeed - Owain got to take part in a siege over the weekend and got a glimpse of what it is like. DEFINITELY BDO is a game that KGB "COULD" get behind and support, but ONLY if we can somehow contain our ADD gamer's whom keep wanting to leapfrog from one beta/alpha to the next only to bail just after the game releases because "this isn't a KGB game". WELL IF IT WASN"T THEN WHY WERE WE PLAYING IT? Maybe we shouldn't back ANY game until it releases AND matches some sort of criteria? Certainly BDO did not have the "Node Wars" up at launch - but that was common knowledge and they did announce that they were coming, and are out NOW. So what is the BDO stigma or excuse for KGB members now? The game is "lame", "mediocre", "Korean"...?

I would have been happy to just remain and had EVERYONE whom wanted to remain under KGB guild stick with it. Unfortunately, you can't really participate in a Node War as a 10-player group; we had been reduced to that once Zendrett and his group and Xavious (Alira) left. The ONLY reason they left is that KGB did NOT show up in BDO - like they thought we would once Valencia and Node Wars launched. WE let them down, so they left to join a guild that WOULD deliver players fighting over property in-game, as a guild.

The ACTIVE players in KGB that we have in BDO right now DO want to participate in Node Wars - so they recommended that we move over to a larger and CURRENTLY active guild in the meantime to hopefully GATHER more KGB folks to play with us in-game. Sadly, it seems everyone here thinks BDO is DEAD/MOTHBALLED.. which it certainly is NOT. EVERYONE whom was playing actively with us before is still playing together in game (well except for Tamlin.. different story there).

I will continue to keep posting what is going on in-game and hope that we can gather some more of our players to come in and join the fight. Also, I would GLADLY re-form the KGB Faction in an INSTANT if we had more folks in-game to help out! But just having a few folks running around in-game with the KGB tag - not fighting for anything, fishing, or trying to gear up only to be wardecked/ganked into oblivion isn't very heart-warming. In fact it is downright depressing...

Lets get a couple things clear about the BDO faction:
  • The collective decision was made to keep the faction open the entire time. We would not close the faction until we were able to meet the population requirements for the top game content
  • We never were able to reach this level, but came very close a couple of times.
  • The decision to disband and join other organizations was made collectively. There were no discussions regarding PVP and KGB rules.
  • Initially the plan was to move all to one other guild, but that was not a requirement, as the faction was never closed.
  • Much of the BDO membership are new KGB members with little experience to the faction system.


All in all, it has been a long and difficult ride for KGBers that are passionate about BDO. There are raw feelings and emotionally charged situations. As I said, 10 to 25 active members at any given time just was not enough to succeed at the level KGB is used to. We have some great members, and I am very sorry we could not reach our goals together.

Aftermath and KGB Law

Lets first read this important quote from KGB General Order #1
Quote:
Respect both your fellow Citizens, Friends, and Foes alike whenever possible. Problems will occur and tempers will flare. Help solve the problems with calm discussion and be respectful to others if possible. Some of our foes may not deserve this respect, but do your best to offer it. Always try to respect these ideals and the many members who came before you. Always consider your nations reputation that we all have worked hard to maintain since 1997. It was this bond that brought us all together and keeps us strong.


KGB Citizens left the open tag of KGB BDO. Once gone, as I understand it, some members scattered to other organizations. Some of these organizations were at war with each other. This mean KGB vs KGB PVP. There are clear rules about this and believe it or not, this is easy to resolve.

KGB General Order #2 - Open Faction
Quote:
OPEN FACTION

In worlds where the KGB does not have an OFFICIAL FACTION presence, your affiliation with other organizations must remain anonymous and not be in conflict with KGB (for instance, you are a member of the XXX organization in a game called Kill Everyone Online, and the KGB is a foe of XXX in another world). If KGB leadership determines there is a conflict of interest, then you would be asked to either leave the other organization, or renounce your KGB citizenship. In worlds that KGB has or had an OFFICIAL FACTION or had a presence, the (GM10) High King / High Queen or (GM5) King / Queen may declare a OFFICIAL FACTION to be OPEN. This releases KGB citizens from the normal requirements of General Order 2 in that game / server, even though there is a KGB presence in that territory. This means that a KGB citizen may be a member of another guild in that region that has been declared OPEN, subject to the following restrictions:

1. You may never intentionally attack or assist in any nonconsensual attack against any citizen of KGB or KGB Organization at any time.
2. You may never use KGB resources (Web, Voice Communications, etc) against the KGB or any KGB member at any time. Such actions will be considered treason and dealt with per the KGB constitution.
3. KGB members that have affiliations with other organizations would be barred from holding any leadership position within KGB and could advance only to the rank of Knight. You must forfeit any leadership achieved at the time you join another organization. At any time, you may decide to give up those affiliations and become eligible for leadership and military advancement.


Let's talk about Item 1. This rule was created to curb griefing and internal strife among KGBers. The key word here is "consensual". Non-consensual means harassment and there is a policy to deal with it. The idea behind this is not to punish or kick people out of KGB, but to work things out calmly.

Let's look at the rules and then a hypothetical situation.

General Order #1 - Harassment section
Quote:
What is harassment? It is repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target. Harassment is further defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.

Humor and joking are ok, and you should be sure to let someone know if you are not comfortable. It is no longer considered joking if you are made to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated. Make sure you always respect your fellow citizens.

If you feel you have been the victim of harassment, first send a private message to the actor and let them know you were offended. If the behavior continues, file a KGB Supreme Court Conduct report and allow the system to protect you. Retaliation for submitting a Conduct Report will never be tolerated, and may result in dismissal from KGB.

These situations can be totally worked out completely outside of the court system. In order for the offense to be indictable, you need to document the offense to the offender and ask that they stop. If they knowingly do it again, then they can be prosecuted. If the action is heinous, then the private message can be bypassed.

For instance, in Darkfall online, death meant full loot. If a KGBer killed me, and refused to return my loot, that would qualify as heinous.

Let's bring this full circle. If you are uncomfortable with BDO PVP against other KGB members, make sure to let them know that. If it has occurred and you feel it is non-consensual, then notify the offender per the harassment policy. If the act occurs again after notification. File a Supreme Court conduct report.
All in all we are one big family, and this is just one of the many games you will play with KGB as a citizen. Let's make sure we keep the fun and true meaning of all this in perspective.
I would like to thank all those who worked so hard to make BDO what it was. In other game scenarios, this would have been a great showing. Time and circumstance conspired against us in this case, and I hope you can all continue to enjoy the game and KGB.

Going forward
Owain and others are passionate about this game and it's potential, as many have been. Unfortunately not all at the same time. I would ask that the current remaining faction leaders make a determination if there is any chance of revival. If there is, then great. If not we should completely remove our official presence to allow everyone to play the games as they would like. Taxman and supporters, please let me know by weeks end what you decide.
Thanks for all of your patience, and lets all come together and get past this emotionally charged situation.

I invite your questions and commentary.


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Thank you for the clarification Jet, much appreciated. No further questions here.

-Emp

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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Let's bring this full circle. If you are uncomfortable with BDO PVP against other KGB members, make sure to let them know that. If it has occurred and you feel it is non-consensual, then notify the offender per the harassment policy.


I think clarification is needed here. Does the act of playing in a Node War with full knowledge that you may go up against fellow KGB members constitute consent?

Id's say yes but I think others think the opposite. What do we do in this case?

Last edited by Goriom; 07/25/16 04:08 PM.
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JetStar Offline OP
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I dont feel we need to get that technical Goriom. I think we should be able to talk to each other. Certainly if you are in a node war, you can assume you will go up against a brother or sister. I don't think that based on that, a case could make it through the court.

I think this started out of surprise. I do not feel that KGBers were aware that other KGBers had joined rival guilds. That is in the open now so I hope this will be resolved.


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Allow me to offer some background on the history of consent.

In UO, skills were gained by use. Frequently, we would spar with butcher knives to increase swords skill, daggers to increase fencing, and hammers to increase mace, and cross heal with bandages to increase healing. Even with a butcher knife, sometimes death would result. This was PvP for training purposes, and obviously consensual, and so not a crime.

In other games, consensual PvP is useful for training. As a warrior, if I want to work on tactics against a Ranger, I might work with Taxman to hone the necessary skills. That is also consensual PvP for training purposes, and not a crime.

In my opinion, if I am involved in a siege node warfare, and I am attacked, you are working directly in opposition to KGB faction interests, in violation of KGB General Order 2 cited above, in violation of Article 3 requiring all to obey the orders of KGB commanders appointed by the King,and in direct violation of the KGB Oath that stipulates no harm to KGB citizens or declared allies.

That is not consensual PvP. That is a crime punishable under KGB law.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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but that's not what Jet just posted, at least I am almost sure he said going into a node war would be considered consensual yes?

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Jet also asked for opinions to be registered, and I registered mine.

If anyone can come up and whack me in a node siege situation, we may as well get rid of the article 2 open faction limitations, and eliminate faction rules all together, and just rebrand as the Knights of Chaos.

If murder of guild members is now sanctioned, of what point is there to belong to a guild?


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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If we really want to go full Warhammer 40K role playing, we could form traitor legions serving the ruinous powers of Chaos against the Imperial forces of the Emperor of Man.

Or we could enforce Article 2 of the Code of Conduct and abide by the KGB Oath.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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For one thing, I will disagree with Jetstar that nonconsensual PvP has anything to do with harassment. The meaning of the word is self explanatory.

No consent. I will never consent to being attacked by another KGB citizen in a combat situation. Training, yes. Not when in active contact with the enemy.

Do we have so few enemies trying to kill us that we need to be attacking our own members while we are also fighting actual enemies? Certainly not in Black Desert Online.

For that matter, I don't grant my enemies consent to attack me. When that happens, I try to kill the fuck out of them for even trying. Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I do not.

What I really don't need at times like that is to have members of my own guild trying to kill me at the same time.

I am amazed that we are even having this discussion. What has this guild come to?

Last edited by Owain; 07/25/16 09:02 PM.

To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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JetStar Offline OP
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Quote:
Let's talk about Item 1. This rule was created to curb griefing and internal strife among KGBers. The key word here is "consensual". Non-consensual means harassment and there is a policy to deal with it. The idea behind this is not to punish or kick people out of KGB, but to work things out calmly.


Killing happened on both sides, and neither wants to press charges.

All of this happened outside the KGB tag, and I don't feel that sending everyone to court is the right move.

I do not control the court, or who files charges. If you or anyone things charges are warranted. File a report and it will take it's course thought the legal system.

I always try the diplomatic approach first, and was unable to find anyone that was willing to press charges. I met with most of the remaining KGB BDOers tonight.


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