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Hello everyone.

As promised I have been looking the current issues with KGB BDO. Lets start at the beginning.

BDO is a game that many KGBers enjoyed playing. The normal ADHD KGB crew came and went early on. This left a core group of players that were recruiting all along. A new generation of KGBers came from this game.

This all sounds good, but there was an important problem. Even though the game was popular, the KGB population was not where it needed to be to take part in the best content of the game.

The population issue started a landslide that we were unable to stop. We started losing some of our top talent because of this. Former BDO High Chancellor Shock was also involved in a life event in real life. By the time we passed the torch to High Chancellor Taxman, the landslide had begun.

Originally Posted By: Taxman
Sorry for the delay in replying - I am TDY in Virginia so haven't been able to check in as often as I would like (or game as often either).

Indeed - Owain got to take part in a siege over the weekend and got a glimpse of what it is like. DEFINITELY BDO is a game that KGB "COULD" get behind and support, but ONLY if we can somehow contain our ADD gamer's whom keep wanting to leapfrog from one beta/alpha to the next only to bail just after the game releases because "this isn't a KGB game". WELL IF IT WASN"T THEN WHY WERE WE PLAYING IT? Maybe we shouldn't back ANY game until it releases AND matches some sort of criteria? Certainly BDO did not have the "Node Wars" up at launch - but that was common knowledge and they did announce that they were coming, and are out NOW. So what is the BDO stigma or excuse for KGB members now? The game is "lame", "mediocre", "Korean"...?

I would have been happy to just remain and had EVERYONE whom wanted to remain under KGB guild stick with it. Unfortunately, you can't really participate in a Node War as a 10-player group; we had been reduced to that once Zendrett and his group and Xavious (Alira) left. The ONLY reason they left is that KGB did NOT show up in BDO - like they thought we would once Valencia and Node Wars launched. WE let them down, so they left to join a guild that WOULD deliver players fighting over property in-game, as a guild.

The ACTIVE players in KGB that we have in BDO right now DO want to participate in Node Wars - so they recommended that we move over to a larger and CURRENTLY active guild in the meantime to hopefully GATHER more KGB folks to play with us in-game. Sadly, it seems everyone here thinks BDO is DEAD/MOTHBALLED.. which it certainly is NOT. EVERYONE whom was playing actively with us before is still playing together in game (well except for Tamlin.. different story there).

I will continue to keep posting what is going on in-game and hope that we can gather some more of our players to come in and join the fight. Also, I would GLADLY re-form the KGB Faction in an INSTANT if we had more folks in-game to help out! But just having a few folks running around in-game with the KGB tag - not fighting for anything, fishing, or trying to gear up only to be wardecked/ganked into oblivion isn't very heart-warming. In fact it is downright depressing...

Lets get a couple things clear about the BDO faction:
  • The collective decision was made to keep the faction open the entire time. We would not close the faction until we were able to meet the population requirements for the top game content
  • We never were able to reach this level, but came very close a couple of times.
  • The decision to disband and join other organizations was made collectively. There were no discussions regarding PVP and KGB rules.
  • Initially the plan was to move all to one other guild, but that was not a requirement, as the faction was never closed.
  • Much of the BDO membership are new KGB members with little experience to the faction system.


All in all, it has been a long and difficult ride for KGBers that are passionate about BDO. There are raw feelings and emotionally charged situations. As I said, 10 to 25 active members at any given time just was not enough to succeed at the level KGB is used to. We have some great members, and I am very sorry we could not reach our goals together.

Aftermath and KGB Law

Lets first read this important quote from KGB General Order #1
Quote:
Respect both your fellow Citizens, Friends, and Foes alike whenever possible. Problems will occur and tempers will flare. Help solve the problems with calm discussion and be respectful to others if possible. Some of our foes may not deserve this respect, but do your best to offer it. Always try to respect these ideals and the many members who came before you. Always consider your nations reputation that we all have worked hard to maintain since 1997. It was this bond that brought us all together and keeps us strong.


KGB Citizens left the open tag of KGB BDO. Once gone, as I understand it, some members scattered to other organizations. Some of these organizations were at war with each other. This mean KGB vs KGB PVP. There are clear rules about this and believe it or not, this is easy to resolve.

KGB General Order #2 - Open Faction
Quote:
OPEN FACTION

In worlds where the KGB does not have an OFFICIAL FACTION presence, your affiliation with other organizations must remain anonymous and not be in conflict with KGB (for instance, you are a member of the XXX organization in a game called Kill Everyone Online, and the KGB is a foe of XXX in another world). If KGB leadership determines there is a conflict of interest, then you would be asked to either leave the other organization, or renounce your KGB citizenship. In worlds that KGB has or had an OFFICIAL FACTION or had a presence, the (GM10) High King / High Queen or (GM5) King / Queen may declare a OFFICIAL FACTION to be OPEN. This releases KGB citizens from the normal requirements of General Order 2 in that game / server, even though there is a KGB presence in that territory. This means that a KGB citizen may be a member of another guild in that region that has been declared OPEN, subject to the following restrictions:

1. You may never intentionally attack or assist in any nonconsensual attack against any citizen of KGB or KGB Organization at any time.
2. You may never use KGB resources (Web, Voice Communications, etc) against the KGB or any KGB member at any time. Such actions will be considered treason and dealt with per the KGB constitution.
3. KGB members that have affiliations with other organizations would be barred from holding any leadership position within KGB and could advance only to the rank of Knight. You must forfeit any leadership achieved at the time you join another organization. At any time, you may decide to give up those affiliations and become eligible for leadership and military advancement.


Let's talk about Item 1. This rule was created to curb griefing and internal strife among KGBers. The key word here is "consensual". Non-consensual means harassment and there is a policy to deal with it. The idea behind this is not to punish or kick people out of KGB, but to work things out calmly.

Let's look at the rules and then a hypothetical situation.

General Order #1 - Harassment section
Quote:
What is harassment? It is repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target. Harassment is further defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.

Humor and joking are ok, and you should be sure to let someone know if you are not comfortable. It is no longer considered joking if you are made to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated. Make sure you always respect your fellow citizens.

If you feel you have been the victim of harassment, first send a private message to the actor and let them know you were offended. If the behavior continues, file a KGB Supreme Court Conduct report and allow the system to protect you. Retaliation for submitting a Conduct Report will never be tolerated, and may result in dismissal from KGB.

These situations can be totally worked out completely outside of the court system. In order for the offense to be indictable, you need to document the offense to the offender and ask that they stop. If they knowingly do it again, then they can be prosecuted. If the action is heinous, then the private message can be bypassed.

For instance, in Darkfall online, death meant full loot. If a KGBer killed me, and refused to return my loot, that would qualify as heinous.

Let's bring this full circle. If you are uncomfortable with BDO PVP against other KGB members, make sure to let them know that. If it has occurred and you feel it is non-consensual, then notify the offender per the harassment policy. If the act occurs again after notification. File a Supreme Court conduct report.
All in all we are one big family, and this is just one of the many games you will play with KGB as a citizen. Let's make sure we keep the fun and true meaning of all this in perspective.
I would like to thank all those who worked so hard to make BDO what it was. In other game scenarios, this would have been a great showing. Time and circumstance conspired against us in this case, and I hope you can all continue to enjoy the game and KGB.

Going forward
Owain and others are passionate about this game and it's potential, as many have been. Unfortunately not all at the same time. I would ask that the current remaining faction leaders make a determination if there is any chance of revival. If there is, then great. If not we should completely remove our official presence to allow everyone to play the games as they would like. Taxman and supporters, please let me know by weeks end what you decide.
Thanks for all of your patience, and lets all come together and get past this emotionally charged situation.

I invite your questions and commentary.


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Thank you for the clarification Jet, much appreciated. No further questions here.

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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Let's bring this full circle. If you are uncomfortable with BDO PVP against other KGB members, make sure to let them know that. If it has occurred and you feel it is non-consensual, then notify the offender per the harassment policy.


I think clarification is needed here. Does the act of playing in a Node War with full knowledge that you may go up against fellow KGB members constitute consent?

Id's say yes but I think others think the opposite. What do we do in this case?

Last edited by Goriom; 07/25/16 05:08 PM.
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I dont feel we need to get that technical Goriom. I think we should be able to talk to each other. Certainly if you are in a node war, you can assume you will go up against a brother or sister. I don't think that based on that, a case could make it through the court.

I think this started out of surprise. I do not feel that KGBers were aware that other KGBers had joined rival guilds. That is in the open now so I hope this will be resolved.


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Allow me to offer some background on the history of consent.

In UO, skills were gained by use. Frequently, we would spar with butcher knives to increase swords skill, daggers to increase fencing, and hammers to increase mace, and cross heal with bandages to increase healing. Even with a butcher knife, sometimes death would result. This was PvP for training purposes, and obviously consensual, and so not a crime.

In other games, consensual PvP is useful for training. As a warrior, if I want to work on tactics against a Ranger, I might work with Taxman to hone the necessary skills. That is also consensual PvP for training purposes, and not a crime.

In my opinion, if I am involved in a siege node warfare, and I am attacked, you are working directly in opposition to KGB faction interests, in violation of KGB General Order 2 cited above, in violation of Article 3 requiring all to obey the orders of KGB commanders appointed by the King,and in direct violation of the KGB Oath that stipulates no harm to KGB citizens or declared allies.

That is not consensual PvP. That is a crime punishable under KGB law.


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Owain ab Arawn
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but that's not what Jet just posted, at least I am almost sure he said going into a node war would be considered consensual yes?

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Jet also asked for opinions to be registered, and I registered mine.

If anyone can come up and whack me in a node siege situation, we may as well get rid of the article 2 open faction limitations, and eliminate faction rules all together, and just rebrand as the Knights of Chaos.

If murder of guild members is now sanctioned, of what point is there to belong to a guild?


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Owain ab Arawn
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If we really want to go full Warhammer 40K role playing, we could form traitor legions serving the ruinous powers of Chaos against the Imperial forces of the Emperor of Man.

Or we could enforce Article 2 of the Code of Conduct and abide by the KGB Oath.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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For one thing, I will disagree with Jetstar that nonconsensual PvP has anything to do with harassment. The meaning of the word is self explanatory.

No consent. I will never consent to being attacked by another KGB citizen in a combat situation. Training, yes. Not when in active contact with the enemy.

Do we have so few enemies trying to kill us that we need to be attacking our own members while we are also fighting actual enemies? Certainly not in Black Desert Online.

For that matter, I don't grant my enemies consent to attack me. When that happens, I try to kill the fuck out of them for even trying. Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I do not.

What I really don't need at times like that is to have members of my own guild trying to kill me at the same time.

I am amazed that we are even having this discussion. What has this guild come to?

Last edited by Owain; 07/25/16 10:02 PM.

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Owain ab Arawn
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Quote:
Let's talk about Item 1. This rule was created to curb griefing and internal strife among KGBers. The key word here is "consensual". Non-consensual means harassment and there is a policy to deal with it. The idea behind this is not to punish or kick people out of KGB, but to work things out calmly.


Killing happened on both sides, and neither wants to press charges.

All of this happened outside the KGB tag, and I don't feel that sending everyone to court is the right move.

I do not control the court, or who files charges. If you or anyone things charges are warranted. File a report and it will take it's course thought the legal system.

I always try the diplomatic approach first, and was unable to find anyone that was willing to press charges. I met with most of the remaining KGB BDOers tonight.


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Originally Posted By: Owain
For one thing, I will disagree with Jetstar that nonconsensual PvP has anything to do with harassment. The meaning of the word is self explanatory.

No consent. I will never consent to being attacked by another KGB citizen in a combat situation. Training, yes. Not when in active contact with the enemy.

Do we have so few enemies trying to kill us that we need to be attacking our own members while we are also fighting actual enemies? Certainly not in Black Desert Online.

For that matter, I don't grant my enemies consent to attack me. When that happens, I try to kill the fuck out of them for even trying. Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I do not.

What I really don't need at times like that is to have members of my own guild trying to kill me at the same time.

I am amazed that we are even having this discussion. What has this guild come to?


One question came up. I am curious how you would approach it. You are in rival guilds in an open faction and there is a node war. What do you do when you come across a rival KGBer?


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To be honest I didn't realize that "rival KGB'er" was even a possible title for someone. I'm still relatively new of a member and only played ArcheAge with the community but I definitely remember strict rules against killing even our "Alt" guild which had Archeage members that fell under the conscript basis. I don't know alot about the BDO game itself but I definitely think there will be a major divide if we are becoming "rivals" with one another inside of a video game. I've seen other "legacy communities" pretty much divide in half over situations where "friendly" pvp got out of hand and hurt feelings erupted. Being of a pvp based mindset myself, I'd prefer to know who my enemies were, pray they were plentiful, and go out of my way to upset them. Before I left Archage, I had slacked off quite significantly from my normal psychological warfare techniques. (Remember an emotional opponent is a non-logical target.) That being said, I do believe PVP has a consent factor inherently in it. By simply logging into a game that has PVP capabilities you are giving your consent to that possibility. For Archeage, you knew that certain zones were open to combat and if you didn't PVP you stayed away from them. In a game like DFO the situation was a little different. People played DFO strictly for the PVP. So what I'm trying to say is that I do see both sides of the situation. I wouldn't expect to be the first target of a fellow KGB Knight if I were to come across them while in a different faction but at the same time they would know your strengths and weaknesses so it would be instinctual to take that person out in order of their vulnerability. I doubt this helps at all but it's just my two cents worth.

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Originally Posted By: Bubba
To be honest I didn't realize that "rival KGB'er" was even a possible title for someone. I'm still relatively new of a member and only played ArcheAge with the community but I definitely remember strict rules against killing even our "Alt" guild which had Archeage members that fell under the conscript basis.


That would apply in BDO as well if there was a proper faction but lets be honest here, there is no faction in BDO.

I think the root of the issue is that people still think there is one but how can that be? You can't force loyalty to a third party guild that has its own set of rules and guild structure.

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There is an Open Faction in BDO under the command of Taxman and his subordinate commanders. We are allied with Lethality, temporarily flying their colors under the authority of Taxman, the commander appointed to this faction by the High King.

It is not our place to question the orders of those lawfully appointed to command. Our duty under Article 3 of the Code of Conduct is to obey the legal commands given us. We may debate the wisdom of those commands on the forums, always seeking to learn from our choices, but when the command has been given and confirmed, it is to be obeyed.

If people will not accept Lethality, even as an association of convenience, then I propose we go back to a Closed Faction on Black Desert, so there will be no question of competing guild association. There will be one one guild association permitted, that of the KGB.

If that means we die due to insufficient numbers, then we die.

Better to die at the hands of an actual enemy than at the hands of one who should be a Battle Brother.

That way lies Heresy, and the Taint of Chaos.

Last edited by Owain; 07/26/16 07:32 AM.

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I honestly just wish we could Kick off our own KGB in BDO one day again with Full Dedication and willingness to follow the Structure & rules needed to be Successful I am really disappointed seeing the many amazing & great players who have been brought in to only see them leave shortly after becoming a full member because things have as of lately been a little sour and I don't want to see this happen to any of us here I want us to be the KGB we always have been & get to kicking ass again.

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Originally Posted By: Owain
There is an Open Faction in BDO under the command of Taxman and his subordinate commanders. We are allied with Lethality, temporarily flying their colors under the authority of Taxman, the commander appointed to this faction by the High King.

It is not our place to question the orders of those lawfully appointed to command. Our duty under Article 3 of the Code of Conduct is to obey the legal commands given us. We may debate the wisdom of those commands on the forums, always seeking to learn from our choices, but when the command has been given and confirmed, it is to be obeyed.

If people will not accept Lethality, even as an association of convenience, then I propose we go back to a Closed Faction on Black Desert, so there will be no question of competing guild association. There will be one one guild association permitted, that of the KGB.

If that means we die due to insufficient numbers, then we die.

Better to die at the hands of an actual enemy than at the hands of one who should be a Battle Brother.

That way lies Heresy, and the Taint of Chaos.


Respectfully Owain,

There was never a closed faction in BDO, it has always been open. BDO kind of happened over night, there was no pre-planning like we had in darkfall or archeage. So out of respect for the knights who already had plans to be playing with their friends or other guilds (again there was no plans for kgb to even be in BDO), we chose to remain open until a time that we could prove we had sufficient numbers and stability.

You should demonstrate a minimum viable product and actual stability before you even consider going closed at this point. There's already a few knights on the fence of resigning over this drama, going closed and forcing the others to come to a shaky faction that would probably fall apart shortly after really would be the tipping point in even more knights resigning.

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How can there be stability when we have Brother killing Brother?

Make it Closed. If we die, we die together.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

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Originally Posted By: Selenian
[quote=Owain] There's already a few knights on the fence of resigning over this drama, going closed and forcing the others to come to a shaky faction that would probably fall apart shortly after really would be the tipping point in even more knights resigning.


We already lost someone due to this drama. I'm afraid we may lose more.

I believe being a proper knight in this guild requires us to sometimes question rules and leadership decisions. Blindly following orders was something I surely did not sign up for. And applying every rule as black and white will ultimately lead us to ruin.

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Fratricide will not lead us to ruin?


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No, I wholeheartedly do not believe so. We are adults here and we understand that in games where we don't have a KGB presence, that people are going to join different guilds. We can be competitive with one another without it leading to issues. If something arises, we will deal with it as adults.

Not being able to play the way you want is what I believe is going to lead us into murky waters. Who wants to live in a dictatorship?

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If the Faction is made closed, then you will live under the organisation you swore to support and defend. How can any object to the performance of their sworn duty?

Last edited by Owain; 07/26/16 08:17 AM.

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Yes if the faction is closed then everyone must fall under the flag of KGB.

Luckily for everyone involved, the faction was never closed.

When the first set of officers (including me) attempted to get the faction closed we were told we would have to wait for a set amount of time, we were also told we had to reach an active membership quota. The time constraint was met but we never had the membership to get the guild off the ground. Not only that, the hardcore aspect of the guild, which was the officer core, got fed up with the lack of activity among its member and all left. This to me was the final nail in the coffin, that is when we should have called it.

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The faction can be made closed at any time, by the command of the King.

In the case of KGB BDO, the status of Open Faction has resulted in divided loyalties, to the point where we are actually debating the best practices by which we may murder each other.

This is a malignant development that requires strong measures, which is why I strongly recommend that by the command of the King, KGB BDO be declared a Closed Faction.

If the faction fails, then it fails due to enemy action, and honor is preserved. We will not have failed through fratricide and civil war.

Last edited by Owain; 07/26/16 08:54 AM.

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Why should the BDO "faction" be treated special in this instance. It has not met the minimum requirements to become a closed faction and I would question any and all actions Jet took to close this faction after all the hardship the original officers went through to have it closed.

Trust me, I desperately wanted this to be a game that had longevity, unfortunately it didn't turn out that way.

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Perhaps this faction should be treated differently because different circumstances have arisen that threaten the very fabric of the KGB, and strong measures are required.

Making KGB a closed faction will eliminate the divided loyalties. Closing KGB BDO altogether will accomplish the same thing, but under no circumstances should we condone continued fratricide.

If the faction is abandoned, then let the KGB Archives record that the faction failed because KGB members could not be dissuaded from murdering their comrades.

It is a black mark upon our history.


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Again there is no reason to give special treatment to the BDO "faction"

This is so inconsequential that it won't even be registered in any archives.

You have to see by now that the person who left, did so not because of what happened at the Node War but because of the drama people stirred because of "traitorous turn coats". For someone who likes to believe he is among brothers, you sure are quick to send them to the guillotine.

This is not fratricide, this is nothing more than friends being competitive against one another. If you see any KGB members out in a node war, you have every right to step out and not partake. The second you decide to join in on the battle, you consent.

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You know, that last thing I am going to say on this matter is... (and I want this on the "record" so people know where I stand)

I believe any guild is composed of its members, not its leadership. You wouldn't have a KGB if it was comprised of just its higher brass. Don't be so gung-ho about the rules, they exist for a reason but they can be ignored or changed dependent on the case. We want people to have fun. Sometimes we will have official factions and we will all get to play with each other. Other times, we will be divided in a game where KGB has no real presence, and that is ok as well. It is ok because at the end of the day, you are among friends.

With all that being said... I am saddened at the lost of a great member and this drama needs to end. So I will be the change I want and end the drama by bowing out.

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Right Owain, but what caused those divided loyalties? Officers and members going behind each others backs and talking about and backstabbing each other, instead of attempting to debate and correct issues as reasonable adults. Not only did people have different playstyles and expectations going into this game, but from the get go there were cliques internally within this faction such as NTC,"old school kgb", ect. While some members may have put KGB as a whole in the front of their minds, others did not.

While I think the consensual pvp is a very big issue, and has been addressed by now I would hope, and should be treated as separate issue on its own. I think it has served as a catalyst that has brought some other feelings to the surface. It's important that the pvp issue be solved and and addressed, but people need to step back and separate those other feelings from that the pvp issue, and then objectively approach them in a calm manner.

It should be mentioned I have no vested interest in this faction, I left early on when work came a calling, so I'm trying my best here to take an unbiased stance, but one that will hopefully bring to light issues that can improve KGB going forward- but I have been approached by several people over the last few months(members of different "cliques"- NTC, older KGB.) essentially venting their feelings and frustrations (I'm not alone is this, there are a few others who have had the same experience). While I kept what was said private, so as not to stir up even more feeling, it has now hit a point of critical mass. Out of respect for those who came venting, I'll keep what was said private.

I tried to stay out of this, not make it my business. But when I see people I've come to consider my friends over the years get to a point they consider resigning, or actually do resign- you bet your sweet ass it's become my business.

Going forward the the absolute best thing Jet could possibly due is declare this faction braindead: 1.) So he doesn't have to babysit the children anymore, and 2.) So people start thinking of each other as equals again.

Even if there is no faction, the lethality guys can still keep playing together if yall are having fun there- that doesn't have to stop, the only thing that has to be done for for you all to come up with an agreement internally amongst yourselves that prevents you from violating General Order 2, which I think is the only thing Jet's official response really wanted you guys to do in the first place.

Then going forward,what steps can be taken to prevent this from happening again? While the KGB has an awesome setup (Constitution, Rights, ect) which I think is the best system out there, hell that's why I came to KGB in the first place and why I'm still here. That said though, even the best system has its problems. BDO I think has brought some of those issues to light, just like GW2 did. What changes need to be made? I don't know, that's the job of the Senate to debate, which I really do hope they review the system and improve it for future factions. Ecspecially in the sense of faction creation and maintenance. Things like minimum membership requirements, processes for creating a faction that are spur-of-the-moment and not pre-planned, a review of High Chancellor powers in an Open faction (I think this issue in particular needs a review to accomodate modern games, frankly it seems quite akward to me and needs better definitions.)

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The KGB is composed of its members, which is why input has been requested in the open forum, and why I am submitting my input.

The laws by which we are governed were written, amended, and approved by the consent of the membership as well, and the brass as you call them, are approved of by the consent of the membership as well.

I fully agree that the rules can be changed as necessary, and they have changed over time, but until they are changed, by the consent of the membership, they should be strictly enforced, otherwise there is no reason to have laws at all.

The only exception I am aware of is that the King, by decree, may arrive at whatever decision he feels is best. I have not always agreed with such decrees, but i have always obeyed, because that is my sworn duty, and the duty of every KGB ciizen.

Any member of the KGB who chafes at the performance of their sworn duty needs to carefully examine their own motivations.

I would rather have only one sworn Battle Brother at my side than a legion of those with divided loyalties.


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Goriom - is it even POSSIBLE for you to understand....

---------> THERE IS AN ACTIVE KGB PRESENCE IN BDO <--------------

If you are NOT one of the knights involved - then really you have ZERO say in what the Knights whom ARE actively playing should do.

The people involved HAVE talked with JetStar, and HE HAS SPOKEN. If you have a beef with that - take it up with the Senate.


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I already said I am no longer going to continue this argument.

regards,
Goriom

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Originally Posted By: Goriom
Yes if the faction is closed then everyone must fall under the flag of KGB.

Luckily for everyone involved, the faction was never closed.

When the first set of officers (including me) attempted to get the faction closed we were told we would have to wait for a set amount of time, we were also told we had to reach an active membership quota. The time constraint was met but we never had the membership to get the guild off the ground. Not only that, the hardcore aspect of the guild, which was the officer core, got fed up with the lack of activity among its member and all left. This to me was the final nail in the coffin, that is when we should have called it.


Your leaving didn't end the game for the rest of us involved in the game. Your ability to rush to 55 and expect everyone rush to the same level is ridiculousness. As a KGB officer even in an open faction you should have a better attitude and know that all people can't be "hardcore". If that is how you want to run then you shouldn't run a faction in KGB.

As for the person that left the guild because of the "drama" is just an excuse for someone that didn't want to be in KGB or doesn't understand what KGB is. If this minor "drama" is a reason for someone to leave then I for one say good riddance.

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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Originally Posted By: Goriom
Yes if the faction is closed then everyone must fall under the flag of KGB.

Luckily for everyone involved, the faction was never closed.

When the first set of officers (including me) attempted to get the faction closed we were told we would have to wait for a set amount of time, we were also told we had to reach an active membership quota. The time constraint was met but we never had the membership to get the guild off the ground. Not only that, the hardcore aspect of the guild, which was the officer core, got fed up with the lack of activity among its member and all left. This to me was the final nail in the coffin, that is when we should have called it.


Your leaving didn't end the game for the rest of us involved in the game. Your ability to rush to 55 and expect everyone rush to the same level is ridiculousness. As a KGB officer even in an open faction you should have a better attitude and know that all people can't be "hardcore". If that is how you want to run then you shouldn't run a faction in KGB.

As for the person that left the guild because of the "drama" is just an excuse for someone that didn't want to be in KGB or doesn't understand what KGB is. If this minor "drama" is a reason for someone to leave then I for one say good riddance.


The drama was far from minor...

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The only drama is from the people who quit the game.

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then why is this discussion still going? theoretically everything should be sunshine and rainbows for the past 4 months.

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Originally Posted By: Exey
then why is this discussion still going? theoretically everything should be sunshine and rainbows for the past 4 months.


It has been extremely fun in game since the original leaders left the game.

Why are you even talking BDO.

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because these are similar issues that we were trying to prevent months ago and they happened anyway because literally 4-5 officers at that time in the game were completely ignored and brushed aside. an entire officer core doesn't just step down for no reason. your attitude towards anyone who has an opinion contrary to your own doesn't lend well to a productive discussion either.

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The inability for one group of people to run a faction has nothing with what is happening now.
You are talking about something you dont even play.

Node wars requires a massive amount of people in one guild or as we have several smaller guilds working together.

Some people are not good with working together and needed to quit the game.

No hard feelings we are having a great time.

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Here are some the requirements from Lethality's recruitment post, I whole-hardheartedly agree with and shall be submitting for perhaps adding to our own requirements (they have a zero tolerance on these and you will be dismissed from the guild):

Trolls
Anyone who likes to Troll others, on any Community Social Site, within any Community game, Community forums, or Community TeamSpeak are removed from the Community and its games. It’s not who we are, nor who we want to be.

Debbie Downers
Any members who sours the spirit of our community through consistent negative or disruptive behavior are removed from the Community and its games. We’re here to support one another and have a great time. There’s no room for Debbie Downers.


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Our General Order may not spell out like they have but it's there for people to read. Discussion leads to arguments sometime. As long as it's constructive and doesn't get personal there's nothing wrong with it. I urge everyone to keep that in mind.
[quote General Order 1: "Thou shalt uphold and abide by the ideals our Nation was built upon"

KGB Citizens have been striving to present themselves as honorable, respectable, and chivalrous since 1997. In the beginning, we came together to combat those whose existence was based on ruining the gaming experience for others. Over time we have evolved, but a basic idea and code remains. Respect both your fellow Citizens, Friends, and Foes alike whenever possible. Problems will occur and tempers will flare. Help solve the problems with calm discussion and be respectful to others if possible. Some of our foes may not deserve this respect, but do your best to offer it. Always try to respect these ideals and the many members who came before you. Always consider your nations reputation that we all have worked hard to maintain since 1997. It was this bond that brought us all together and keeps us strong.

The following policy will be enforced by the KGB Federal Faction and Supreme Court in accordance with Article 4, Section 1, of the KGB Constitution: KGB citizens will treat each other with honor and respect and never take part in Personal Harassment. What is harassment? It is repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target. Harassment is further defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor [harasser] knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.

Humor and joking are ok, and you should be sure to let someone know if you are not comfortable. It is no longer considered joking if you are made to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated. Make sure you always respect your fellow citizens.

If you feel you have been the victim of harassment, first send a private message to the actor and let them know you were offended. If the behavior continues, file a KGB Supreme Court Conduct report and allow the system to protect you. Retaliation for submitting a Conduct Report will never be tolerated, and may result in dismissal from KGB./quote]

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Our General Order may not spell out like they have but it's there for people to read. Discussion leads to arguments sometime. As long as it's constructive and doesn't get personal there's nothing wrong with it. I urge everyone to keep that in mind.
General Order 1: "Thou shalt uphold and abide by the ideals our Nation was built upon"

KGB Citizens have been striving to present themselves as honorable, respectable, and chivalrous since 1997. In the beginning, we came together to combat those whose existence was based on ruining the gaming experience for others. Over time we have evolved, but a basic idea and code remains. Respect both your fellow Citizens, Friends, and Foes alike whenever possible. Problems will occur and tempers will flare. Help solve the problems with calm discussion and be respectful to others if possible. Some of our foes may not deserve this respect, but do your best to offer it. Always try to respect these ideals and the many members who came before you. Always consider your nations reputation that we all have worked hard to maintain since 1997. It was this bond that brought us all together and keeps us strong.

The following policy will be enforced by the KGB Federal Faction and Supreme Court in accordance with Article 4, Section 1, of the KGB Constitution: KGB citizens will treat each other with honor and respect and never take part in Personal Harassment. What is harassment? It is repeated, intrusive or unwanted acts, words or gestures that are intended to adversely affect the safety, security or privacy of another, regardless of the relationship between the actor and the intended target. Harassment is further defined as "engag(ing) in intentional conduct which the actor harasser knows or has reason to know would cause the victim, under the circumstances, to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated; and causes this reaction on the part of the victim.

Humor and joking are ok, and you should be sure to let someone know if you are not comfortable. It is no longer considered joking if you are made to feel frightened, threatened, oppressed, persecuted, or intimidated. Make sure you always respect your fellow citizens.

If you feel you have been the victim of harassment, first send a private message to the actor and let them know you were offended. If the behavior continues, file a KGB Supreme Court Conduct report and allow the system to protect you. Retaliation for submitting a Conduct Report will never be tolerated, and may result in dismissal from KGB.

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Originally Posted By: Helemoto
The inability for one group of people to run a faction has nothing with what is happening now.
You are talking about something you dont even play.

Node wars requires a massive amount of people in one guild or as we have several smaller guilds working together.

Some people are not good with working together and needed to quit the game.

No hard feelings we are having a great time.


Whoa whoa whoa.. Inability to run the faction? First of all, we didn't even have a faction to run. We had the officers who tried to organize xp groups, get people gear etc. and then we had almost everyone else who were in the game, but didn't actually want to play. Just about every day I would ask (multiple times) for people to group up and I'd get 1 maybe 2 responses. The group always ended up being the same with only the officers in it. We tried to get the faction going, but we had almost zero effort from our members. It didn't feel like a guild to me.

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Originally Posted By: Niru Suto
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
The inability for one group of people to run a faction has nothing with what is happening now.
You are talking about something you dont even play.

Node wars requires a massive amount of people in one guild or as we have several smaller guilds working together.

Some people are not good with working together and needed to quit the game.

No hard feelings we are having a great time.


Whoa whoa whoa.. Inability to run the faction? First of all, we didn't even have a faction to run. We had the officers who tried to organize xp groups, get people gear etc. and then we had almost everyone else who were in the game, but didn't actually want to play. Just about every day I would ask (multiple times) for people to group up and I'd get 1 maybe 2 responses. The group always ended up being the same with only the officers in it. We tried to get the faction going, but we had almost zero effort from our members. It didn't feel like a guild to me.


An Open Faction is a Faction. We were and are running the KGB tag.
Not everyone can play at the same time or can group up in a game this complicated when you ask.

Inability? yes are you still playing or running it. Then it is a failure on the leaders.

This is not personal for me but I am sick of feeling like the old players that quit on us are coming here and attacking us for their failure.

We are having alot of fun in this game and to have you come shit on it makes it hard for us to get more people to play with us.

If you dont play you don't need to comment on our game.

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Okay folks, I did put a lock on this discussion as there was too much negative going on here – let's focus on discussion regarding KGB's participation in BDO moving forward and how to deal with the challenges of an OPEN Faction given our Constitution and rules.

---------

That being said, after talking with the Officers of the BDO faction we would like to continue to operate as an open faction to play the game that we are enjoying with our KGB members. We feel that the issues that surround the semantics of KGB on KGB combat can be resolved by adhering to the following:

1) As there is not a way to participate in the end-game content of Node Wars and Sieges without having numbers and a guild structure that supports this; KGB members have dropped tag and reformed under Lethality (currently). Members wishing to play with us are strongly encouraged to play with us under this structure, but are not under any obligation to do so as this is an Open Faction currently.

2) If a KGB member wants to play BDO but NOT with the group, or wants to leave the group for another guild they will be required to let me (or whomever is HC of BDO Faction) know via Oracle PM. They will need to let us know where they are joining to help prevent open world non-consensual PVP.

3) Participation in Node Wars or Sieges IS considered consensual PVP. You may opt to participate or not based on your own choice. You may face a KGB brother or sister in the playing field, but as long as #2 is adhered to there will be no surprises on the battlefield.

4) Open-World PVP via actively flagging PVP or by war declaration does NOT give any players consent and will be considered a breach of KGB rules. KGB members will need to opt out of these confrontations, and can not partiticipate in KGB on KGB PVP as this violate the rules.

---------

Honestly it is my hope that more KGB membership decides to give BDO a chance. This will allow the Open Faction to be able to grow and eventually become a Closed faction (reforming under the KGB tag). We cannot do this without support and numbers. I have played many games with KGB over the decade of my membership, and quite honestly this game is the closest match in "feel" to playing Ultima Online on Siege Perilous! BDO certainly isn't an EASY game, but it does offer a lot for casual as well as competitive players. We do need to be mindful that our membership has both types and should be comfortable for them to co-exist.

Currently we have a superb staff of officers and players that would be thrilled to have more players join and be happy to help you learn to play BDO in the ways that you prefer. Let's quit fighting and being negative and focus on what everyone really wants, to play a game together online and have FUN doing it!


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