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I would also shy away from comparing the American economy to others around the world. Economies in general are very complex formulas with several x factors.

My bottom line is that low end jobs should be a motivator to move up the chain and not a sustainable career. This creates a low end entitlement class that will always require the intelligence of people above them. You can be enslaved without physical shackles.

We cannot make it comfortable for people to remain unskilled, entitled and uneducated. People should never be comfortable with those attributes.

I believe in a safety net within an economy via a minimum wage that allows people to get by during hard times. I do not believe in turning mediocrity into a career choice.

Last edited by Sethan; 04/09/13 10:35 AM.
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I dislike notion of employer-sponsored health coverage, businesses should focus on doing what they are good at, and unless you are insurer or a hospital that would not be providing health care coverage.


I agree. The problem is govt is also no better at it. Lets extend tax incentives to individuals, and allow insurance to be sold across state lines for starters.

Rand Paul also had a pretty idea he has worked on with insurance companies regarding a long term contract structure where younger workers can enter into contracts with insurance companies that cover long periods of time. So they pay less while they are young, and more as they age. This gets them in the system early so insurance can invest against future payouts and still make money, and incentivises people to pay into the system before they actually need it.

I think if these three things were implemented, a good chunk our issues would be corrected. After,we could see what was left and make more intelligent decisions regarding any possible next steps.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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Originally Posted By: Sethan
My bottom line is that low end jobs should be a motivator to move up the chain and not a sustainable career. This creates a low end entitlement class that will always require the intelligence of people above them.


Society operates on averages, if everyone was Albert Einstein, then least adept Einsteins would be driving taxicabs and flipping burgers. Individuals can aspire to excellence, but populations cannot escape mediocrity.

Because of this low-end jobs should be a sustainable career, because somewhere for someone this is best they could do. Alternative is forced eugenics.


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"No, you do not have to think; it is an act of moral choice. But someone had to think to keep you alive; if you choose to default, you default on existence and you pass the deficit to some moral man, expecting him to sacrifice his good for the sake of letting you survive by your evil."

John Galt - Atlas Shrugged



We both know the majority of those jobs are not filled with people doing the best they can do. If they were then they would be happy to have that job. They would not be unionizing to demand higher wages than their skilled counterpart.

I worked at similiar jobs for several years during high school and my freshman year in college. I know from my own experience the type of people who *limit* themselves to these types of jobs. They are not the noble hard working victims that politicians and newspapers make them out to be. Nothing like sitting around the kitchen listening to people educate each other on how to game the system for more welfare and entitlements while stealing steak rolls out of the freezer to sell to a gas station up the road. *actually happened* I do not want to cater of those who made the choose to default and pass the deficit along to moral men.

I started out building docks for a guy when I was 13. I had to work with a pile driver that weighed almost as much as I did in a nasty ass swamp to complete that job. After that I worked numerous positions in several restraunts. Nothing like coming home covered with grease at 12 from a job no one appreciates you doing. I finally got hired on as a iron worker during college. I spent 2 summers burning up in a nasty ass plastic plant while risking death and dismemberment to build iron structures. I finally got through college and landed a few tech jobs which were actually worse than my previously listed jobs. I ended up doing tower equipment installation and dangling off of 200+ foot towers to install various equipment for a few more years. I finally landed a cozy job as a network technician for a bank. I say all of this because I have been through the meat grinder and know what it is like.

I met a few excellent hard working Americans during that time who were doing their best and happy to be employed at these same places. You are correct that those type of people exist but Sini they are a diamond in the rough. I defend the minimum wage and similiar programs because of those few people. Those people were in need and appreciated society giving them a chance to live a normal life. I am glad we had this conversation because I had forgot about most of those people.

If mediocrity is a necessary evil within society then lets try to limit it as much as possible instead of catering to it. Lets not pat the people who *limit* themselves on the back and tell them they are doing the best they can.

That same attitude is what is ruining the American education system. It will have the same effect on our economy if we allow it.


Last edited by Sethan; 04/09/13 02:08 PM.
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We are not talking about "pat the people who *limit* themselves on the back" - we are talking about food, shelter and healthcare. Minimum wage isn't about living it large, it is about independently living . It is about not having to "dear government/community/church it is still 3 days until my next paycheck but I don't have any money to buy food".

I strongly believe that everyone who puts honest day of work in, no matter how much of a screwup-dropout-whathaveyou, deserves to make a living.


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They do deserve to make a living if they put in a hard days work. I am just not convinced these low wage workers are starving or sleeping out in the cold at night. I would go as far as to say no one in America should go without those 3 basic needs whether they are working or not.

I just believe the people in the news article are entitled loud mouths that want more for them and less for everyone else though. They are just as greedy as the ultra rich but lack the capability to acquire more wealth.

You can probably Google a few stories but very few people are going without food, shelter or basic healthcare. If that were true these starving people would be plastered all over the news everyday. It would be the biggest political issue out there.

So good news...

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Walmart Pays Workers Poorly And Sinks While Costco Pays Workers Well And Sails -Proof That You Get What You Pay For.

Now I think this is a bunch of wishful thinking. How you treat employees is part of it, but having it as "proof" or "cause" is one huge stretch. Sad truth is that it doesn't matter if you treat your rank-and-file as shit, for as long as you can contain PR fallout you will do just fine.

Problem with Wallmart is that its brand got very tarnished, at this point 'Scummart' perception entered realm of general knowledge and that what have hurt the company.


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Originally Posted By: Sethan
If that were true these starving people would be plastered all over the news everyday.


You are right, it is not in the US news cycle, you don't make money by making your viewers depressed. Scared, upset, angry and train wrecks - that makes money and that what they show.

Non-US news do report it, but you have to be reading non-US news to notice:

UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9694000/9694094.stm
Canada: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...article7551156/
Qatar: http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryus2012/2012/10/201210343152481862.html
Qatar: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2011/09/2011915172736118705.html



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Probably won't be taking anything from Forbes serious anytime soon after reading this. I think my list includes every major news outlet in America now. Why would they allow such a extremely biased article on their site? This is what I would expect from a website like info-wars.com or something.

""Here’s a crazy thought—might it have something to do with the fact that Costco pays nearly all of its employees a decent living (well in excess of the minimum wage) while Wal-Mart continues to pay its workers as if their employees don’t actually need to eat more than once a week, live in an enclosed space and, on occasion, take their kids to see a doctor?""

Come on.....Really Forbes? This is a straight up smear article.

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Originally Posted By: sini
You are right, it is not in the US news cycle, you don't make money by making your viewers depressed. Scared, upset, angry and train wrecks - that makes money and that what they show.


Actually that sums up 95% of the news on every major outlet in America. So I assume all of them will be going out of business soon and http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/ is about to rake in the cash.

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