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Originally Posted By: Daye
"this should include ballistics but only for new guns."
Pointless. Easy to modify. Contrary to what CSI likes to portray, matching a round to a specific gun is nigh impossible.
Change or modify the barrel, extractor or firing pin and the ballistics DB becomes moot.


You can also file off serial number. So how would you make it harder? A RFID chip in the gun that would take hard drilling to get out?

I will agree that this is "better than nothing" plan.

Quote:
Mandatory insurance for all gun ownership ? lol no
I'll agree to it when you get special insurance for owning exotic cars, alcohol, tobacco or fast-food purchases.


Cars - you already do. Alcohol and tobacco already have sin tax (they are consumable) applied to sales, and lots of second-hand smoking regulation that prevents you from inflicting damage on others. The same on fast-food.

Conceptually - if you manufacture the gun that could only be used to blow your own brains out, it won't have to be insured.


Quote:

"If your gun is stolen - you still on the hook for up to N (~5ish) years for any crime"

LOL. Really ? Someone steals your car and mows down a dozen folks while running from the police you still think this is a good idea ?


If your car is used for any kind of crime you get to answer questions about it, and if it can be shown that you knowingly made the car available, then you are responsible.

The intent of this rule is to make owners responsible for not securing the gun and failing to report it stolen. "On the hook" = your insurance pays and you have to keep making your monthly payments. We are not talking PYITA, not unless you also failed to report it and can be shown negligent in other ways (history of failing to secure or you can be shown to knowingly made available for illegal use).

Quote:
"Mandatory gun operator license that has to be renewed"

It's called a CHL in most States. In addition, when you actually purchase a firearm you have to answer a set of potentially disqualifying questions.


Answer a set of Yes questions? I am amazed you think this is an effective measure to prevent sale of a gun to the wrong kind of people. I am done taking your post seriously.

Last edited by sini; 01/15/13 12:16 PM.

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Have you ever purchased a firearm before Sini? Not a loaded question, I just want to know if you have been through the process before.

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Originally Posted By: Sethan

I see where you are going with the insurance on firearms situation but I still do not agree with it at all. That opens the door for all kinds of abuse on your 2nd amendement rights. It may sound innocent at the start but will become a tool to abuse your right to bear arms. I could use some extreme examples like having to ensure your freedom of speech since it can get you punched in the nose or killed for saying the wrong thing.



I understand your concerns, but how else could you force average clueless Joe to be responsible in ownership, storage of guns and ammunition? How would you make gun industry design safer products? Guns can be made safer, but there is zero incentive to do so and we can't legislate safety into guns. The only feasible way I see it happening - if there is a demand for safer product because it is cheaper to insure. It worked for cars, why not try it with guns?

Last edited by sini; 01/15/13 12:21 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Sethan
Have you ever purchased a firearm before Sini? Not a loaded question, I just want to know if you have been through the process before.


I do not currently own any guns, and do not plan to own any in the future. With that said, while I lived in Texas and worked for the military I have been to a numerous shooting ranges, gun shows and had opportunity to buy "tailgate" guns.

When I go hunting (not something I especially enjoy, but I do like my venison) I borrow guns for the occasion. I have not went through a formal civilian gun training/safety process or hold any kind of permits. I had guns and training issued to me in my line of work, but it was never my primary job responsibility to use them.

Last edited by sini; 01/15/13 12:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: sini
Originally Posted By: Sethan

I see where you are going with the insurance on firearms situation but I still do not agree with it at all. That opens the door for all kinds of abuse on your 2nd amendement rights. It may sound innocent at the start but will become a tool to abuse your right to bear arms. I could use some extreme examples like having to ensure your freedom of speech since it can get you punched in the nose or killed for saying the wrong thing.



I understand your concerns, but how else could you force average clueless Joe to be responsible in ownership, storage of guns and ammunition? How would you make gun industry design safer products? Guns can be made safer, but there is zero incentive to do so and we can't legislate safety into guns. The only feasible way I see it happening - if there is a demand for safer product because it is cheaper to insure. It worked for cars, why not try it with guns?


I don't know if I have the answer for average clueless Joe. Average clueless Joe really pisses me off and makes us all look bad in more areas of life than just firearms. This is the same Joe who crashes his jacked up SUV into a McDonalds while driving drunk and trying to buy a Big Mac with a diet Coke.

My point is you cannot punish responsible people because clueless Joe is a fucking retard who doesnt follow the rules.



The industry already makes a tool that will remain safe 100% of the time if you follow their guidelines. It is rare to find a gun that harmed someone because of a mechanical failure. Even with a mechanical failure, 100% of gun accidents would be prevented by following the 4 rules below.

1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


Last edited by Sethan; 01/15/13 12:43 PM.
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"Answer a set of Yes questions? I am amazed you think this is an effective measure to prevent sale of a gun to the wrong kind of people. I am done taking your post seriously."

At no point did I state it was effective, I merely pointed out they are there and your answers to them are REQUIRED before you will be allowed to purchase a firearm. You can choose to lie on the form all you wish, but that is, in itself, a crime. Recall my thoughts on what criminals think of rules and laws . . . .

"Alcohol and tobacco already have sin tax (they are consumable) applied to sales"

And has that tax been effective at deterring people from smoking or drinking at all ? Considering about 10k deaths from alcohol related crashes in 2010 ( latest statistics ) I would say probably not. Especially sobering ( no pun intended ) to compare it to 11k deaths via homicide with firearms the same year.

Yet, I see nothing about folks discussing banning certain types of alcohol based on silly criteria . . . .

To top it off, tobacco DWARFS alcohol and firearms deaths COMBINED. According to the CDC, it estimates the number of tobacco related deaths to be in the 440,000 range per year. Secondhand smoke accounting for roughly 50k of that number.

Yet, we're not limiting sales of cigarettes to specific types or amounts are we . . . . :|

Why ?

Because it's death over time. ( DOTS DOTS more DOTS ! ) We're cool with it as long as it isn't a dozen kiddos all at once that invades the news for weeks at a time.

It's also because any attempt to ban cigarettes and alcohol outright would result in the majority of America going into ape-shit poo-flinging mode since those two " sins " as you put it are enjoyed by a much larger audience than firearms are.

Seriously though, if this was about " Protecting America ", guns would be down the list a bit from the other major killers. Since this is not the case, we know it's not about protecting the children from evil shooters. Rather it's about pushing a political agenda some have been trying to get away with for years. They simply waited for the latest tragedy to emerge before trying it again.

If you disagree with this, can you give me any reasonable explanation as to why alcohol and tobacco are still very much legal to use considering how much they contribute to the overall death toll in this country on a yearly basis ?



"A RFID chip in the gun that would take hard drilling to get out?"

Won't work either, I would just hit it with a high voltage pulse to destroy the RFID circuitry.


From what I can tell, you're trying to track the tool used in the commission of the crime instead of focusing on the reason behind the crime itself. I know why, because it's a potentially easier fix than trying to identify and / or fix the mentally unstable committing the crimes to begin with.

Somehow you believe that folks with traceable firearms would refrain from criminal behavior. Which is about as far from the truth as you can possibly get. In each of the massacre scenarios that has brought the whole "omgevilblackassaultguns" into the spotlight, the shooters have died. Either by their own hand or by the police. I assure you they don't CARE that you know it was their gun ( or not ) that was used in the crime. There is no one left to charge with a crime because the criminal(s) is(are) dead. Thus the frustration and the silliness that comes about every time something like this happens.

OMG-DO-SOMETHING !!!!! :D

So it boggles my mind how anyone could possibly think that implementing more tracking rules could do anything to prevent or deter future crimes of a similar nature from happening.

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I love these guys. :D



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Quote:
If you disagree with this, can you give me any reasonable explanation as to why alcohol and tobacco are still very much legal to use considering how much they contribute to the overall death toll in this country on a yearly basis ?


Alcohol and tobacco are mostly self-inflicted. Bad moonshine aside, you never hear of alcohol killing multiple people.

Guns fatalities cannot be compared to alcohol and tobacco deaths because volunteer self-inflicted vs. violent attack by others categorical distinction.


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You conveniently skipped the part where he pointed out 50,000 second hand smoke deaths. Are those voluntary?


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The coming of the Third Reich to Austria. Hitler voted in.

Quote: "He did not sound like a monster then... he sounded like an American politician."

First they made everyone register their guns, because they cited crime and safety reasons. Then they said it didnt work, it wasnt enough - so they confiscated them.

Then Millions of people got thrown in the ovens.

Lets remember history, and not repeat it.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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