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Originally Posted By: sini
You can self-congratulate yourself as much as you want, but there is lot of difference between high-caliber automatic/semi and low-caliber handgun. Deadliness. Getting shot to the chest with AK or hollow point is probably not survivable, getting shot with bird shot hunting rifle is very survivable.



Sinij, no offense man, but if there is one topic I'm positive you have no expertise on, it's firearms.

You hit a vital spot ( organ, artery, brain, etc ) with just about anything ( including bird shot ) and the effect is lethal. The larger calibers exist to take down critters who are tougher than we are ( in the hunting world ) or hardened targets ( in the military world ).

The only difference between pistol and rifles are engagement ranges. The rifle is more accurate and designed for targets at longer range than a pistol is whereas a pistol is ideal for concealment and close range work.

In this context, however, we're talking about kids. Not police in body armor. Not bears in the woods. ANY caliber would be more than sufficient here and a whole list of other devices that could have been used instead.

This guy could have, just as easily, walked into the classroom, barricaded the door behind him and emptied a few gallons of gasoline onto everything in the room and lit it up.

The vapor explosion would have been bad enough, but it would have likely burned everyone to death in the classroom.

Same horrific end result. None of the silly talk about banning gasoline. :|

Hell, in my opinion, if anything should be banned it should be the week long obsession by the media about it. Why the hell do you think these folks do this ? Look at the attention they get from it.

Bottom line being, regardless of the tool used, we are a violent species by nature. Some more so than others. Before you disagree, a quick glance at our history all the way back to the beginning will confirm my statement to even the most skeptical among us. You can't stop lunacy because we can't identify it most of the time until after the fact. The sooner folks realize that WE as a species are the f*cking problem, the better off everyone will be.










Last edited by Daye; 12/17/12 09:43 AM.
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Sen. Joe Manchin: Time to act

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“I don’t know anyone in the hunting or sporting arena that goes out with an assault rifle,” he said. “I don’t know anybody that needs 30 rounds in the clip to go hunting. I mean, these are things that need to be talked about.”


So this guy also doesn't know what he is talking about?


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Originally Posted By: Daye


The only difference between pistol and rifles are engagement ranges. The rifle is more accurate and designed for targets at longer range than a pistol is whereas a pistol is ideal for concealment and close range work.



Absolutely not true.

Clip size
Stopping power
Ease of handling (and effective rate of fire).

You can get a handgun that would fire magnum high caliber rounds, but not 20+ at a time, plus only very skilled marksman would be able to shoot such handgun more than one round at a time and maintain any kind of accuracy.

There is absolutely no point denying that semi-automatic rifle is by far more deadlier weapon than any comparable handgun.


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Originally Posted By: sini
Originally Posted By: Daye


The only difference between pistol and rifles are engagement ranges. The rifle is more accurate and designed for targets at longer range than a pistol is whereas a pistol is ideal for concealment and close range work.



Absolutely not true.

Clip size
Stopping power
Ease of handling (and effective rate of fire).

You can get a handgun that would fire magnum high caliber rounds, but not 20+ at a time, plus only very skilled marksman would be able to shoot such handgun more than one round at a time and maintain any kind of accuracy.

There is absolutely no point denying that semi-automatic rifle is by far more deadlier weapon than any comparable handgun.


Again, no offense, but from your past comments I would wager you do not own any firearms, thus your opinions are based on experiences and information other than your own observations.

A chest shot with a tiny 55gr Vmax .223 round ( regardless of platform type ) will kill anyone just as quickly as a chest shot from a 250gr .50AE Magnum round from a pistol. I promise.


Lets take your points one at a time:

Clip Size: This line of thinking assumes that killing ten is somehow less horrific than killing twenty. How many a lunatic kills ( including their age and/or gender )is irrelevant, the fact that they are killing anyone is the real issue here.


Stopping Power: Range dependent. At close range like this, is a moot point completely. Only becomes an issue as ranges increase beyond pistol caliber capabilities.


Ease of Handling: Application dependent. Indoors in cramped quarters, pistols are the go to device. It tougher to maneuver a rifle within a building than a pistol. Outdoors with plenty of room and where engagement distances are expected to be longer, the rifle is the go to device.


However, you're not going to give in, nor will I. As a result, I will call the argument here just because.


Some final thoughts:

In the right hands firearms can be used to save lives, in the wrong hands, they take them. The tool itself is neutral in application, it's all about the wielder.

Arguing semantics such as caliber, clip capacity, grip types, or appearance is ridiculous and missing the point entirely.

That point being:

The world is full of evil people and there is nothing you or I can do about it. From time to time, they will crawl out from under their rock and wreak havoc on the rest. Regardless of what tools they use to do it or how many they can kill in one go, it's still horrific.

So unless you're ok with applying selective bans to just about anything that can be used to harm someone else ( computers, chemicals, fast food, alcohol, tobacco, etc ) you might want to consider what slippery slope you're standing on before finalizing your decision.

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Originally Posted By: sini
Sen. Joe Manchin: Time to act

Quote:
“I don’t know anyone in the hunting or sporting arena that goes out with an assault rifle,” he said. “I don’t know anybody that needs 30 rounds in the clip to go hunting. I mean, these are things that need to be talked about.”


So this guy also doesn't know what he is talking about?
No he doesn't, and not just for his inaccurate/poor use of firearm terminology, but ultimately because of this:
Originally Posted By: Derid
The reason we have the right to keep and bear arms is to prevent a Govt monopoly of force.

The fact that they can be used for hunting and sport is really just a silver lining.


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Ask someone that isn't in a position of power in one of the many Middle-Eastern, Asian, South American, or African countries where the government and their army/militia has all the guns how they feel about gun control.

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There are many people in this world that are experts with any weapon. Given practice just about anyone WILLING can be very accurate and deadly with just about any gun, not just the semi automatics as you say.

If you don't have a gun on you and someone starts shooting, it doesn't matter if they have a semi-automatic or a single shot, you're pretty fucked either way if you can't defend yourself. Sure you can hope and pray they stop or run out of bullets. Maybe even try to rush the person and hope you get to them before they can reload. One bullet can kill you as fast as any bullets following the first shot.

The shooter that shot up the movie theater in Colorado went to other venues, he chose the one he did because it didn't allow conceal carry. If you know you will be the only one with a gun, you can do whatever you want without any threats. You want all guns to go away, once you realize that's not going to happen the quicker you will learn that arming yourself and having a gun makes you safer than if you didn't have one. Or at the very least allows you to defend yourself if someone else has a gun.

Oh...just to be clear you don't have to have a semi auto to be fast.


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Can you spot Sini...

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Originally Posted By: sini
Sen. Joe Manchin: Time to act

Quote:
“I don’t know anyone in the hunting or sporting arena that goes out with an assault rifle,” he said. “I don’t know anybody that needs 30 rounds in the clip to go hunting. I mean, these are things that need to be talked about.”


So this guy also doesn't know what he is talking about?


Its not about hunting.

Its about Govt monopoly of force, which is the reason for the 2nd amendment.

Plus I consider gun control just a form of collective punishment, and I dont believe in collective punishment.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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