The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central Healthcare for profit just doesn't work

Hey Derid, show me ANY study where the United States is ranked in the top 10 and substantially above Government run healthcare.

Yeah as I suspected. "Fair financial contribution" , "equality" , that report you posted is or is based on the ultra crappy UN report which was basically just a shill report for Govt run health care. Not reflective of actual quality of health care system, we went though this in a previous thread.

Besides, I certainly acknowledge major problems with our countries health system. I just also acknowledge that Govt, as usual, is the problem - not the solution.

Most problems, especially economic and societal problems cannot be solved with violence. Violence is all that Govt is. You do things the way the State tells you, or else they threaten you with imprisonment or death. That is no way to go about making a better society.

Derid reminds me of Baghdad Bob, no matter what facts tell about healthcare, it is always not really comparable, flawed, or entirely different thing.

Thats a flawed worldview you have there.

Try actually thinking things through for once, and consider all the ramifications. You might start seeing things differently if you really start objectively considering how things work.

The truth is, you want an "easy" solution , you want people to tell you that there is a solution, but you dont want to actually think through the solution and put any effort into it. Far easier to cling to empty promises of panacea that sound good while tossing insults at those who see through BS dished out by those who simply want more money and power.

Its pretty sad actually, utilitarianism once stood for liberty - not abdication of personal responsibility or belief in worship of authoritarian violence to impose half baked opinions on others. Nor some vague "greater good" that is defined as something as ridiculous as "most happiness for the most people".

Derid, you are very intelligent and informed person but you let your dogma shape your world view. When you start talking about utilitarianism/pragmatism, you are making mockery of these concepts. You'd be more than happy to see US turn ungovernable and on the way to becoming banana republic as long as it is ideologically pure. Sorry for this being pointed at you, but this is how I see your world views.

No, not exactly. The reverse is actually true.

Try thinking about personal and interpersonal interactions, then fitting that into the scope of group actions and interactions and continue working your way up.

As with the fast food example, often times you even admit you do not really understand how the things discussed work.

Your admitted lack of understanding , and inability to articulate a model of how your proposals would actually play out in the real world proves that you are the one operating entirely from dogma - not I.

The difference between us, seems to be not so much a question of ideology as odd as that might sound at first. Rather, I see and pay attention to the side effects and compounded consequences - something you never seem to give any mind or care about.

You get very vague, snarky, and dodge any questions that would actually put into question the consistency of your stated principles. I think you like the "idea" of the world you think should be created, and the idea alone is good enough for you. Whenever any negative side effects are brought up regarding an implementation of an idea you favor, you simply dissemble or ignore, or simply refocus on the original problem without addressing the side effects.

Forcing societal change at the barrel of a gun, without actually understanding how the details would work is foolhardy and dangerous. Eastern Europe showed us this much. I dont think the Bolsheviks revolted because they actually wanted to live in a decrepit, Govt controlled police state. But thats what they got, because they did not comprehend all the ramifications of what it was they were asking for. The "idea" they were sold was good enough, and as long as anything could be explained in terms of forwarding that "idea" it was accepted.

Thinking through the entirety of an issue, and understanding the complexity is necessary if positive changes are to be made through violence. The devil is in the details. Ignore the details, and you are doomed to failure. In the realm of politics, this also dooms the rest of us along with you.

Also, I would make the case you that you are the one making a mockery of utilitarianism and pragmatism.

But that discussion can go in a different thread should you wish to have it.

Warning: any such thread will include a need to establish philosophical consistency.

Thank you for providing a glimpse into your thinking and highlighting stark contrast with that and what really happened.

In case you are mildly curious - our conversation went along the lines of you going into deeper into denial over inability to reconcile your faith in the open market and the evidence of its complete and utter failure that results in demonstrable harm to society.

Your claim that profitable corporations could not afford paying livable wages was a cherry of insanity on top of whipped zeal of your misguided believes.

Your appeals "you just don't understand!" were nothing but intellectual capitulation.

That was not an appeal, that was an observation based on your admitting that you did not understand - and you claim that looking at an aggregate macro view was sufficient to understand all the dynamics at play.

Your capitulation was when you said that looking at SEC filing was sufficient to make a call based on what a company could or could not do at the micro level and still be successful.

Nice try, but until you demonstrate an ability to absorb more fact and arrive at conclusions not handed directly to you by friendly media your assertions of my supposed "faith" (which is not faith, I actually understand the granular mechanics of why markets work and centralization does not on a micro, not an ideological level) and "capitulation" (which is obviously you trying to misdirect, because you know you got 'nuthin) will continue to ring hollow to everyone but yourself.