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Kaotic, you would call anywhere outside of your right-wing fever swamp a la-la land.

Trying to apply market forces to a basic livable wage is like trying to regulate price of gold - you are just doing it wrong.

None of you market sycophants even want to consider the fact that we are discussing involves a whole lot more than simply employee-employer transaction, and are overall costs are much greater and end up being offloaded to the system.


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Get back to me about my sycophantic belief in the universality of market principles after you've spent some time in the real world and have some clue what it takes to run a business, pay your employees what they are worth, provide healthcare for them, obey all OSHA and EPA rules and regulations, keep your investors happy, negotiate effectively with your suppliers, pay your ridiculously high taxes, and deliver a reasonable bottom line (because that's how you get paid), all while providing a quality product at a reasonable price.

Until you demonstrate a reasonable understanding of how things work in the real world none of your high-minded leftist ideology nonsense is going to impress any of us.


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Originally Posted By: Kaotic

Until you demonstrate a reasonable understanding of how things work in the real world none of your high-minded leftist ideology nonsense is going to impress any of us.


BINGO!

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Originally Posted By: sini
Quote:
You seem to be laboring under some illusion that your typical food shack could afford to pay people 15$/hr to drop fries in a deep fryer or run a cash register.


Absolutely they can. Looking at the stock price and financial reports, it does not appear that any of these mega-corps are in any danger of going out of business.

Your argument is demonstrably invalid.

Someone at Forbes run the numbers during Papa Jones debacle and concluded that comprehensive healthcare coverage would cost 4c per slice more.

Plus it isn't just fast food - it is fast food and retail. This is big chunk of all employment even during good times.



You are yet to address why the Taxpayer should be subsidizing wages, where corporations set them knowingly to below-livable level and expect us to pay the rest via social programs?


Um, no. And no. Your refusal to think anything through prevents you from getting a clear picture of how this works. You see a macro report and make assumptions that fit your predjudice, you obviously have no idea how things work on the store level. And it was the CEO of PapaJ himself who wrote what the increased input cost would be. Plus I do not get the impression this is not about Obamacare, you want everyone to make a lot more money in general.

As to the taxpayer picking up the bill - you seem to think twice as many people picking up full govt ride is better as opposed to fewer people picking up a partial govt ride. I find that silly.


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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
I walked uphill both ways, knee deep in the snow in the middle of July, so I am special because I have some secret knowledge.


Okkkkkaay.


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Originally Posted By: Derid


Um, no. And no. Your refusal to think anything through prevents you from getting a clear picture of how this works.


More magical thinking on your part. If only I though about it more, I'd find despicable conservative point of view more agreeable? Don't think so. It takes a special kind of a character flaw to tell people they don't deserve to eat/shelter/clothing for an honest day of work.

Quote:
You see a macro report and make assumptions that fit your predjudice, you obviously have no idea how things work on the store level.


So you think these reports were cooked? Because they show profitable corporations that (often) pay healthy dividends. I have been holding stocks of a number of these companies, and they have been nothing but stellar though this recession and largely shielded that portion of my assets from the effects of the market downturn.

How it works on the store level DOES NOT MATTER outside of store level. Sure, some franchise lease holder could be squeezed by corp along with employees, but that does not change fundamental math of profits - there is plenty out there and fast food corps are not in any danger of going out of business.

Quote:
As to the taxpayer picking up the bill - you seem to think twice as many people picking up full govt ride is better as opposed to fewer people picking up a partial govt ride. I find that silly.


I find it silly that such 'small government'/'market force' advocate as you would not admit that if we were to remove government subsidies via social nets, then almost nobody would work at these jobs, because you can't meet life needs with what you get paid.

Have you considered that these below-poverty paying jobs creating vicious cycle? You pay less, people have less to spend, it puts pressure to lower prices on everything and results in more outsourcing and more low paying jobs. On top of that, next generation grows up in poverty and with parents working full time, have opportunities greatly reduced and are going to go back into feeding this vicious cycle.

Even Ford understood that you have to pay enough your workers so they can afford one of your cars. Why have this knowledge was lost?

Last edited by sini; 12/02/12 08:10 AM.

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The more people you have with jobs,the more tax revenue you collect. The Government can't add $9 million jobs. However Government can impact how many jobs that are created in the private sector by Implications from regulation & taxes.

We need solid regulation and taxes. To much or not enough of either doesn't help, this is why It needs to be balanced. Like other laws our regulation has no teeth and some could be considered a joke.

Cut the red tape of regulation add more bite to limited regulation when it is abused and you will find a better outcome in the end, every person that could be affected including environment would be better protected.

The only reason to have more Government regulation would only to be to hire more people. The effects of having more people in regulation not only slows down job creation, it could stop it. You don't have to be some kind of evil genius to know this, common sense should do that!

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Originally Posted By: sini
I'm going to stick my head in the sand and ignore all real world evidence/experience that refutes my ideological paradigm
Enjoy Lala land :)


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Economist on minimum wages

Quote:
Labour markets probably aren't perfectly competitive. Various frictions—like the cost to a worker of trying to find a different job at a firm that's also willing to hire him—can give employers some monopsony power, allowing them to appropriate some of the producer surplus that might otherwise be captured by workers.


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Originally Posted By: sini
Originally Posted By: Derid


Um, no. And no. Your refusal to think anything through prevents you from getting a clear picture of how this works.


More magical thinking on your part. If only I though about it more, I'd find despicable conservative point of view more agreeable? Don't think so. It takes a special kind of a character flaw to tell people they don't deserve to eat/shelter/clothing for an honest day of work.

Quote:
You see a macro report and make assumptions that fit your predjudice, you obviously have no idea how things work on the store level.


So you think these reports were cooked? Because they show profitable corporations that (often) pay healthy dividends. I have been holding stocks of a number of these companies, and they have been nothing but stellar though this recession and largely shielded that portion of my assets from the effects of the market downturn.

How it works on the store level DOES NOT MATTER outside of store level. Sure, some franchise lease holder could be squeezed by corp along with employees, but that does not change fundamental math of profits - there is plenty out there and fast food corps are not in any danger of going out of business.

Quote:
As to the taxpayer picking up the bill - you seem to think twice as many people picking up full govt ride is better as opposed to fewer people picking up a partial govt ride. I find that silly.


I find it silly that such 'small government'/'market force' advocate as you would not admit that if we were to remove government subsidies via social nets, then almost nobody would work at these jobs, because you can't meet life needs with what you get paid.

Have you considered that these below-poverty paying jobs creating vicious cycle? You pay less, people have less to spend, it puts pressure to lower prices on everything and results in more outsourcing and more low paying jobs. On top of that, next generation grows up in poverty and with parents working full time, have opportunities greatly reduced and are going to go back into feeding this vicious cycle.

Even Ford understood that you have to pay enough your workers so they can afford one of your cars. Why have this knowledge was lost?


No, no magical thinking here - only you digging deeper and deeper by showing how inadequate your knowledge of the subject is.

Your non sequitur regarding falsified reports further reinforces this.

As I said, you see a report and make an *assumption*. A very poor one at that. You seem to have no comprehension on how that money was actually made. A quick example for you:

Store chain A has 1000 stores and they are all profitable. Each store returns 20k/yr profit - chain profits 20mil a year. Something happens that makes each store UN-profitable. Suddenly chain is losing money. Expand or condense numbers involved to match scenario. What happens on the store level is EVERYTHING. A chain without healthy individual stores is no longer a healthy or profitable chain.

Also, if govt subsidies were removed - people would still work at those jobs. Because believe it or not, you actually can meet life needs working those jobs. You do not seem to want to believe it, but mine own two eyes have seen it countless times. You just do not know what you are talking about. I did it myself when I was younger, and no - no govt or welfare etc involved.

BTW - workers at fast food joints do in fact make enough money to buy fast food. Not sure where you are finding relevance in the Ford comparison.

All the real world evidence is against you here. Unlike you apparently, most of us have seen it or lived it first hand at one point or another.

All this without even getting into inflation, and relative value mess that would be created.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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