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Sini #103066 08/11/12 01:20 PM
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How Paul Ryan captured the G.O.P.

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Ryan won his seat in 1998, at the age of twenty-eight. Like many young conservatives, he is embarrassed by the Bush years. At the time, as a junior member with little clout, Ryan was a reliable Republican vote for policies that were key in causing enormous federal budget deficits: sweeping tax cuts, a costly prescription-drug entitlement for Medicare, two wars, the multibillion-dollar bank-bailout legislation known as TARP. In all, five trillion dollars was added to the national debt.


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Sini #103070 08/11/12 03:55 PM
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Is that supposed to be a detrimental article on Ryan? Seems like if his colleagues all got the boot for not supporting conservative ideals and he kept his job then his constituents must have thought he wasn't one of the RHINOs.

The rest of the article seems to extol the virtue of his desire to not just stand against Obama but to offer a counter plan. Isn't that one of the things you claim the right never does?


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Sini #103074 08/11/12 06:51 PM
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Honestly I am pretty torn. Its not that I particularly like Romney at this point. But, I *really* want to see the depth and breadth of what Obama has really been up to come to light and see some accountability.

The problem is, I am not sure it would happen under Romney. Just like Obama either got scared or cut corrupt deals to protect all the crazy shit Bush was doing/crazy people that operated with impunity under Bush... its entirely possible, even probable that Romney would continue in the same tradition and bow to the same elite cadre of corrupt powers.

But, if there was less fear of retribution - its actually Dems that would start speaking up.

So it makes for a tough call. Give the current embodiment of evil and corruption another 4 years.. or replace it with something that has about an 80% chance of being almost or just as bad. Honestly I consider it a real pickle.

As far as Medicare/SS... that doesnt matter to me. Because I already know for a fact that on our present path, neither program will have any relevance 30-40 years from now. If anyone my age is in a position where they have to rely on these govt programs , we are basically screwed. My generation will continue to be heavily looted by the Silent and Looter (Boomer) generations and be left with nothing.


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Kaotic #103076 08/11/12 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Is that supposed to be a detrimental article on Ryan? Seems like if his colleagues all got the boot for not supporting conservative ideals and he kept his job then his constituents must have thought he wasn't one of the RHINOs.


Thing is, his voting record is not _ANY DIFFERENT_ from those RINOs that got tossed out, only his rhetorics are.


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Derid #103077 08/11/12 08:13 PM
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Derid, I just want to let you know that you are irrational borderline into conspiracy theories. I am not saying this to insult you in any way or try to endear Obama, but I do hope at some point you can figure out where emotions overrode your reason.

None of the facts that you have presented so far, not even when taken at the face value, support "embodiment of evil and corruption" conclusion. Yes Obama is not all sunshine and roses, yes he under-delivered on number of promises, yes some of his policies were continuation of Bush but nothing near that you could even stretch into "embodiment of evil and corruption".

Last edited by sinij; 08/11/12 08:16 PM.

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Sini #103080 08/11/12 10:44 PM
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You think what you think, and I think you view things from a slanted perspective that lacks in objectivity. I think you carry around a lot of intellectual baggage that you have probably carried for so long you forget that you even have it. I think this baggage induces you into making lots of assumptions, which I think you would be better off challenging on occasion.


If you think that considering an Administration that constantly fights transparency, prosecutes genuine whistleblowing, sends cash to friends, let corrupt cronies off the hook, fights to eliminate or reduce Constitutional rights, lies pathologically and is hypocritical in the extreme as corrupt and evil is irrational and borderline "conspiracy theory" then I really have no more to say to you on the subject.

You will continue to view them as well intentioned people who just happen to do and ignore a lot of horrible things, I will continue to view them as cynical power seekers who do not feel bound by morality or who in the best case think the perceived ends justify the means. /shrug


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #103081 08/11/12 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: sinij
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Is that supposed to be a detrimental article on Ryan? Seems like if his colleagues all got the boot for not supporting conservative ideals and he kept his job then his constituents must have thought he wasn't one of the RHINOs.


Thing is, his voting record is not _ANY DIFFERENT_ from those RINOs that got tossed out, only his rhetorics are.


As much as I dislike it, unfortunately sinij is correct here. I double checked Ryans voting record earlier and it is actually pretty damn shitty. A lot shittier than I expected TBH.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Derid #103086 08/12/12 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Derid

You think what you think, and I think you view things from a slanted perspective that lacks in objectivity. I think you carry around a lot of intellectual baggage that you have probably carried for so long you forget that you even have it. I think this baggage induces you into making lots of assumptions, which I think you would be better off challenging on occasion.


I openly admit that I do not operate 100% objective in any political discussion. This why I post here, to get my ideas challenged.

Quote:
If you think that considering an Administration that constantly fights transparency, prosecutes genuine whistleblowing, sends cash to friends, let corrupt cronies off the hook, fights to eliminate or reduce Constitutional rights, lies pathologically and is hypocritical in the extreme as corrupt and evil is irrational and borderline "conspiracy theory" then I really have no more to say to you on the subject.


Such Administration would indeed be contemptible and "evil". I just disagree with your conclusions that such Administration is _this administration_.

I've read your links, I openly admit that some of them were news for me. I also admit that most of them, regardless how you assign the blame are black mark on this Administration but they do not add up to what you describe above. Especially if you objectively apply "how is that different from say, Clinton or Bush administration" test.

Do you also think that all Administrations since Reagan were "embodiment of evil"? Why not?

Last edited by sinij; 08/12/12 06:44 AM.

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Sini #103093 08/12/12 09:33 AM
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What do you mean "Why not?" I more or less think they were. Clinton less, Bushes more.

Perhaps that is where we differ. You are comparing Obama to others, comparing relative evil. I am looking at the absolute value of the evil present. Something I have mentioned before that you probably do not fully appreciate, is that I spend 6 years bashing Bush as the most contemptible piece of human waste that could have possibly been chosen to sit the Oval Office. ( I am exaggerating slightly, I think Nixon was probably worse all things considered)

"The other guy is evil too" means jack and shit to me. How is evil diminished by the presence of more evil?

I was also surprised that Obama turned out to be even worse than Bush. I expected him to be a bit of a leftist, but I was completely flabbergasted that he turned into a Bush++ neocon replete with all the same corruption. His total 180 turn between rhetoric and action does in fact make me wonder who really holds the power in Washington sometimes.

You call it an "under performance of promises"... however while technically true in a literal sense, I find it an extremely poor description. More precisely, its a reversal of principles - which is something I consider completely different.

Saying you are going to "fix the economy" then failing to due so, due to lack of ability, lack of luck, lack of whatever is one thing. Typical promise underperformed on... and certainly not an indicator of mal-intent. I certainly think it possible to act on your stated *principles and yet underperform in many areas, especially the economy, and especially if you are a leftist.

Saying you are going to protect civil liberties, protect wwhistleblowers and run the most open administration in history... and the proceeding to eradicate civil liberties, prosecute whistleblowers, and run an operation even more secretive than Bush is not "underperformance". It is a very deliberate choice to operate on a completely different set of *principles than what had been stated.

To me, this is a very very different thing - and whenceforth my perception of evil arises.

One thing you might not have noted in my previous list, is unlike so many on the blowhard right-wing media that I think it likely you reflexively associated my view with, is that none of my reasons given have anything to do directly with the *existence of* Obamacare, Bailouts, or wanting to tax the rich, etc. Perhaps there are some particular things that happened in the course of those events that I find particularly shady (like hosing the Delphi ppl during auto bailout)- but I am not basing my view off his economics or leftist stance, no matter how idiotic I believe it to be. Because incompetence and evil are certainly different, and incompetence should be ruled out before assigning ill-intent.


I do not see how someone could take those factors and , accepting that they were true, not come to the same conclusion I have. Also, there is a lot more where that came from. A *lot* more. I also believe that the buck stops with him. If he did not approve of actions taken by underlings, and they are not representative of the ethics he holds, they should have been/be fired and in some cases investigated. If they arent, then I hold him responsible for them. Just like I did and do with Bush. I dont think Bush actually had a plan to destroy the fabric of this country. I think he sat on the sidelines drooling while his appointees did it for him willy-nilly. Doesnt matter, he took an oath of office that in my view he failed to live up to, including defense of the Constitution. Also by failing to enforce ethics on his inner circle when in a position of power I also attribute to him the actions of his underlings.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Derid #103096 08/12/12 10:20 AM
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Well I can see your position more clear now - Every president, based on actions of their administration, since Reagan was/is evil. I will admit this is a very consistent view. I even agree with you in principle. Unfortunately I do not think that our modern political system could produce anything else. This was also the reason I was rooting for Ron Paul, despite disagreeing with him on a large number of issues. Despite knowing that there is no way he would ever get a nomination.

Do you think Romney, given that he also very likely going to be considered evil by application of this standard, is likely to be more or less evil than Obama?

Last edited by sinij; 08/12/12 10:34 AM.

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