The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central VOTE FOR RICK PERRY!! NO SERIOUSLY!

Jetstar is the only one sane here ,

Government(State) should give
security,health care,education for free and it´s not a comunism thing.

If you do not have the money to pay your medical problem or of your´s children because your job only allow you to have enough money to pay to have a house and pay your´s childrens food. Should be a obligation of government to supply a Medical system of quality.

When you have a government spending too much money on military endeavours, neglecting education,health care,security and job creating, you have a big problem for the future.

I heard from tv that for the first time USA will have a generation that has less education that their parents. That will have a big impact on jobs and economy.

Ever heard of the Army corps of engineers?

Your statement is simply wrong that the government does not produce anything.

Again, the Manhattan project was a government run and paid project that produces nuclear power. The Government "Produced" this. How about all the science NASA has funded that has been turned into great things in the private sector?

You know I respect you Derid, but blaming Fannie and Freddie for Credit Default Swaps is just nuts!



I hate it when people bring up the Soviet Union. I am in no way a communist. How can you say that Police and law enforcement are not needed and protection is not a right. How about defense by a fire department for damage and first response to injury? Well as soon as they help you you are on your own in your opinion. That to me is cruel. If you are a legal citizen of this country, you should be safe and have health care.

Getting everyone covered will reduce costs. No more expensive emergency room health care that NOONE PAYS FOR thereby jacking up the price for the honest folks like me. Preventative medicine goes a long way.

How about enforcing immigration law and policy so I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS HEALTH AND EDUCATION!

You guys just don't make sense. I cant wait until you turn 65.

You are right about education Mithus. Though a lot of our discussion here is also about the role of Federal vs Local government. The Federal govt involvement in lower education has been disastrous.

I actually think that Federal Student Loans are OK... even though Federal higher education financing has been a primary reason the cost of higher education keeps skyrocketing.

The problem with health care though on a Federal level.. well there are a few.

If you or anyone could answer a few questions, I would think it a lot more sane...

1) How do you keep a Fed Health system even slightly fair, without criminalizing unhealthy behavior? AKA unless we start throwing people in jail for eating too much cake, why the fuck should I or anyone pay for some fatass who eats 12000 calories of junk a day to have 4 heart surgeries?

2) Supply vs Demand is a real force, and all economics follows it - its as concrete as a law of physics - simply put, the more people want something the higher the price. The price may not always be in terms of money... one example is the old Soviet bread lines. The cost was reasonable in terms of money per loaf, but there simply was not enough.. so people had to wait in line. So, the question is what system do you use for doling out the finite amount of health care available in response to a potentially unlimited number of requests to access care?

3) How do you encourage companies to do expensive research and testing of new treatments and drugs, if they will no longer make a good profit? - Also, if the market is no longer setting the price of treatments... what metrics can you use to set "fair" pricing? Remember, if you do not make it lucrative for the companies they will no longer seek new treatments, but if you let them, they will have everyone paying 1000$ a day for some treatment they do not need... (not to mention all the grey areas, where people can be kept alive an extended period but at great financial cost. ) So.... if you take the free market out of the equation, how do you properly set the pricing for these treatments and services? ( please note, that such a certrally managed economic system has never worked on a large scale for ANYTHING, EVER, in the ENTIRE history of humankind. It always has ended up in the destruction of said economy/industry, a mess of utter corruption and bureaucratic incompetence. Without exception, and without fail.)

So, how can these fundamental issues be addressed? Lots of people like to think that those of us who oppose things like free health care oppose it because we want people to suffer or something... not because we think it is utterly impossible to provide in an equitable manner. Thats just not the case.

Credit default swaps would have worked actually, and were not allowed to take their course because the people underwriting the swaps were politically connected enough to keep from having to pay them. The thing that caused the panic, was that noone was certain just how deep the liabilities went, and who was holding them. There likely would have been a lot less uncertainty a week after the collapse, had default swaps been allowed to play themselves out, and anyone over-exposed allowed to fail.

Bernake certainly thought that Goldman Sachs and all his buddies among the Wall St elite were much too important to America to be allowed to fail, but that does not make it objective reality.


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Jet, I bring up the Soviets simply because they are an example of a managed economy. It is not meant to imply you are a Soviet.

Also, this discussion is about Federal duties. I do not think my fire dept should be run by a giant Fed bureaucracy.... I think my local fire dept does quite well thank you. No, I do not want it supplanted or controlled by an irresponsible and incompetent Federal Bureaucrat..

lol you do not need to wait all that, just 45 is enough with amount of fat(fast food) eaten by general population to have the first heart problem.

Also, this discussion is about Federal duties. I do not think my fire dept should be run by a giant Fed bureaucracy.... I think my local fire dept does quite well thank you. No, I do not want it supplanted or controlled by an irresponsible and incompetent Federal Bureaucrat..

AMEN!

All problems that you discuss can be solved by Darwinism...as it should be. The US has already screwed up it's own view on imperialism so at this point its either expand or isolate. There is no middle ground there.


If we follow history we know that soon there should be another total war. Until then.

Get rid of welfare and let people who are too lazy to work starve to death.

Start raising taxes on imports.

Tax the hell out of US founded corps that move operations over seas.

STOP LETTING FOREIGNERS BUY OUR REFINERIES!!!

Stop giving immigrants free money just for moving here.

Close the borders or build housing communities with schools that teach immigrants the basics of being an American and make them work for it. (You call it indentured servitude if you like but equivalent exchange is the basic fundamental of all life.)

Stop treating politics like a sport.

Another US civil war is incoming. (Edward Casey said so.)

Hey everyone. I never talked about state vs federal. That is all you guys. I am talking about government in general.

Derid

you pay taxes and those taxes goes to government and you want a good use of your money.

local,state,federal are all government branchs it doesnt matter, you pay your taxes and city,state and federal government get a part of it to distribute and give you services that you need, like security(police,fire departmente),education and of course health system if you cannot pay for a private one, like a private school.

You pay taxes to the government, Why not a small percentage of your taxes goes to medical care system, the same thing goes to education and security, in the end you pay for it.

As incentive for medical and drugs discoveries, it´s not different like when the government pay for ultra expensive military jets and equipment. The government should pay with your taxes for drugs and give those companies that discovery 20 years of patente rights, like it does with military.

Did you see how france and england take care of people? is something wrong with them not paying directly for medical care. It will not drive any medical discoveries away.