Political caricature (artist unknown) 14 Reasons Why Rick Perry Would Be A Really, Really Bad President: http://endoftheamericandream.com/archive...y-bad-president Rick Perry is a "big government" politician. When Rick Perry became the governor of Texas in 2000, the total spending by the Texas state government was approximately $49 billion. Ten years later it was approximately $90 billion. That is not exactly reducing the size of government. The debt of the state of Texas is out of control. According to http://USDebtClock.org/, the debt to GDP ratio in Texas is 22.9% and the debt per citizen is $10,645. In California (a total financial basket case), the debt to GDP ratio is just 18.7% and the debt per citizen is only $9932. If Rick Perry runs for president these are numbers he will want to keep well hidden. The total debt of the Texas government has more than doubled since Rick Perry became governor. So what would the U.S. national debt look like after four (or eight) years of Rick Perry? Rick Perry has spearheaded the effort to lease roads in Texas to foreign companies, to turn roads that are already free to drive on into toll roads, and to develop the Trans-Texas Corridor which would be part of the planned NAFTA superhighway system. If you really do deep research on this whole Trans-Texas Corridor nonsense you will see why no American should ever cast a single vote for Rick Perry. Rick Perry claims that he has a "track record" of not raising taxes. That is a false claim. Rick Perry has repeatedly raised taxes and fees while he has been governor. Today, Texans are faced with significantly higher taxes and fees than they were before Rick Perry was elected. Even with the oil boom in Texas, 23 states have a lower unemployment rate than Texas does. Back in 1988, Rick Perry supported Al Gore for president. In fact, Rick Perry actually served as Al Gore's campaign chairman in the state of Texas that year. Between December 2007 and April 2011, weekly wages in the U.S. increased by about 5 percent. In the state of Texas they increased by just 0.6% over that same time period. Texas now has one of the worst education systems in the nation. The following is from an opinion piece that was actually authored by Barbara Bush earlier this year... "We rank 36th in the nation in high school graduation rates. An estimated 3.8 million Texans do not have a high school diploma.We rank 49th in verbal SAT scores, 47th in literacy and 46th in average math SAT scores. We rank 33rd in the nation on teacher salaries." Rick Perry attended the Bilderberg Group meetings in 2007. Associating himself with that organization should be a red flag for all American voters. Texas has the highest percentage of workers making minimum wage out of all 50 states. Rick Perry often gives speeches about illegal immigration, but when you look at the facts, he has been incredibly soft on the issue. If Rick Perry does not plan to secure the border, then he should not be president because illegal immigration is absolutely devastating many areas of the southwest United States. In 2007, 221,000 residents of Texas were making minimum wage or less. By 2010, that number had risen to 550,000. Rick Perry actually issued an executive order in 2007 that would have forced almost every single girl in the state of Texas to receive the Gardasil vaccine before entering the sixth grade. Perry would have put parents in a position where they would have had to fill out an application and beg the government not to inject their child with a highly controversial vaccine. Since then, very serious safety issues regarding this vaccine have come to light. Fortunately, lawmakers in Texas blocked what Perry was trying to do. According to Wikipedia, many were troubled when "apparent financial connections between Merck and Perry were reported by news outlets, such as a $6,000 campaign contribution and Merck's hiring of former Perry Chief of Staff Mike Toomey to handle its Texas lobbying work."
Austin, Texas activist Robert Morrow's recently placed NATIONWIDE ad: Ad: 'Have You Had Sex With Rick Perry?' - Politics News Story - KERO Bakersfield: http://www.turnto23.com/politics/28903972/detail.html So, now knowing all of this, do you STILL want to vote for Rick Perry or support ANYTHING he does in the future?! If you do, you have to be EVIL or CRAZY!
Jet is more the Big Gov't type though. He just doesnt feel right if Gov't isnt taking boatloads of his money and doling it out to politically connected cronies. Perry vs Obama would be a win-win for him
I think it's hilarious that he used to be a democrat. And praised Hilary at one time! He should be your hero Jet!
I would rather see the other Texan (Ron Paul) win. Derid is correct, Jet likes his hand held.
We should regulate business more, that way we can force every company in America to go overseas. Then we should tax the millionaires and Billionaires 75% of their earnings (oh yeah, don't forget those millionaires & billionaires begin at $250,000 salary, because you know $250K is a millionaire)
Once Obamacare kicks in,doctors won't be making the big money anymore, so having a $200,000 college loan to become a doctor would no longer be financially wise. Can you say shortage of doctors anyone?
Also instead of having real tax reform, we can just add thousands more tax laws to the bad system we have in place now. Don't worry though, if you FORGET to pay your taxes you will go straight to jail... UNLESS your name is Timothy Geitner or Charlie Rangel then it's ok, because YOU FORGOT!
Well you all forget, it is either going to be Romney, Perry, or Obama. Paul cant win, it is that simple.
I guess you guys are going to have your health care coverage taken care of for the rest of your life WITHOUT Medicare. My parents do not have this option, nor will I. I choose to vote in my own interest, as all of you should do the same. It works in europe, and even canada.
I have paid into Social Security and Medicate for my entire life, never having been unemployed since I was 13 years old (paper route).
You guys are freaking nuts if you think industries will self regulate and that private enterprise can produce all of the great achievements our government has been able to.
I have learned that talking to you guys is a real waste of time, and I will love to see what happens if you all manage to get either Perry or Romney in the White House. Its going to be a total fucking disaster especially for Woman's rights (all the want to do is kill abortion) and for the economy as a whole.
Lets just enact the flat tax and be done with it, but you are all smart enough to know that is not going to happen. If I have to pick between Romney, Perry, or Obama, I pick Obama hands down. If you people take the time to look at either Romney or Perry's history, or policy ideas, and still support them, then there is no reason for me to keep talking to you about this. If you are naive enough to think that Ron Paul has a chance, then I probably should not be talking to you about this anyways.
Honestly it is the lessor of two evils, and to me, Obama wins. I hope to god the rest of the country thinks the same.
I think it's hilarious that he used to be a democrat. And praised Hilary at one time! He should be your hero Jet!
Perry is a fucking flip flopping christian Nazi. No thanks
I would rather see the other Texan (Ron Paul) win. Derid is correct, Jet likes his hand held.
Hell yes, I love police, fire departments, our military.
We should regulate business more, that way we can force every company in America to go overseas. Then we should tax the millionaires and Billionaires 75% of their earnings (oh yeah, don't forget those millionaires & billionaires begin at $250,000 salary, because you know $250K is a millionaire)
Yeah, lets deregulate it more so they can fuck everyone more that they are getting fucked now. Companies are making RECORD profits in the wake of this shit, and you want to give them the keys to the castle. Fucking genius if you ask me.
Once Obamacare kicks in,doctors won't be making the big money anymore, so having a $200,000 college loan to become a doctor would no longer be financially wise. Can you say shortage of doctors anyone?
There is no shortage of Doctors in Britain. They have fixed salaries and 100% health care coverage. It is amazing to listen to people like you vote against their own interest. Instead of blanket coverage, lets just let all the uninsured destroy their futures by emergency room medical care that they will NEVER be able to pay back. Once again, FUCKING GENIUS.
Also instead of having real tax reform, we can just add thousands more tax laws to the bad system we have in place now. Don't worry though, if you FORGET to pay your taxes you will go straight to jail... UNLESS your name is Timothy Geitner or Charlie Rangel then it's ok, because YOU FORGOT!
Flat tax is the solution in my book, but politics are way to corrupt to let that happen.
We have known each other a long, long time, and in most things I like you just fine. But your political stance is complete ass and I would, without hesitation mind you, seriously punch you up side your head in real life if you ever spout 1/4 of that horse shit you spew. It is mind bogling that someone as intelligent as you can not see past the rhetoric yoou have been shoveled.
Government was not designed to take care of people. Period. And I am sick to death of everyone with a liberal mind set attempting to make it do so. Go the fuck to Russia, PLEASE.
And no..Rick Perry is a nightmare waiting to happen. The one thing I am 60% confident of right now is that Obama has a very, and I do mean very, slim chance of getting re-elected. It is only a matter of which way the job situation and economy go in the next 12 months. Without a big win in that arena, he will not be re-elected. And that is a double edge sword, cause as sure as hell he needs to go, the frightening part is who might replace him. And do not fool yourself for one minute Jet, if it comes down to Obama and Perry, you are whacked if you think Perry does not have a chance. As scary as that is, he will pull many votes that Obama thinks are his away, as well as every vote from the conservative base and in a no win, one or the other, he will pull even the tea party and many independants, just because Obama has been such a pathetic excuse for a President.
Yeah, lets deregulate it more so they can fuck everyone more that they are getting fucked now. Companies are making RECORD profits in the wake of this shit, and you want to give them the keys to the castle.
Yes they are making profit, so why are they still going overseas? And laying off? I'm not saying we don't need regulation, and if you don't think there is bad regulation, then there is no sense of continuing this discussion. I never said NO regulation, i'm saying no to over regulation... in which YOUR President has said there is some in Government. So obviously you have issues with him as well.
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There is no shortage of Doctors in Britain. They have fixed salaries and 100% health care coverage. It is amazing to listen to people like you vote against their own interest. Instead of blanket coverage, lets just let all the uninsured destroy their futures by emergency room medical care that they will NEVER be able to pay back. Once again, FUCKING GENIUS.
Fixed salaries,100% healthcare... now why are they in debt again? Also, isn't our population like 5 times their size? Remeber the Hawai childcare single payer state funded Insurance? It lasted 8 months, then they had to dump it from the cost. I'm willing to do healthcare reform, first off lets put in some tort reform. Lets face it there's a lot of frivilous lawsuits. And yes, I know there's legitimate malpractice as well. Lets not make it so easy for any douchebag trying to score an easy buck. Also, lets be able to buy Insurance across state lines. Competition helps. If the government were a little more efficient and didn't have so much Bureaucractic BS, cost wouldn't be so high.
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Flat tax is the solution in my book, but politics are way to corrupt to let that happen.
I agree we need a new tax solution. Maybe something like a low national tax, along with a consumer based tax. When the wealthy go to buy all those Jets, they will have a tax on it. Then again, you're right... politics are to corrupt to change a corrupt tax system. Because all those millionaires making $250,000 a year need to be taxed more.
The only thing all of you have touched on that makes perfect sense is the flat tax, but I have and many others have been saying that for years. It would solver the countries debt issue almost over night. But we wont ever see it..
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
"You guys are freaking nuts if you think industries will self regulate and that private enterprise can produce all of the great achievements our government has been able to."
Really???? You have just proved yourself INSANE.
Private enterprises are the only ones that have PRODUCED anything. The federal government doesn't PRODUCE anything it takes money from the people who PRODUCE things.
Voting for Paul is valid even if he does not win, the more votes "outsider" candidates get, the more comfortable people feel voting for them in the future. Change is slow, but can happen. The proof of this before our eyes, is Paul polling consistently over 10% - it is the media who makes it out as though he cannot win, and Big Media has a lot of vested interest in keeping the status quo. ( Paul is polling much higher this go-around than in his previous attempt... and it isnt because he changed his message).
I will agree that his chances of being elected are slim, nevertheless it is clear that the Libertarian wing of the GOP is growing in organization and strength. This trend needs to be encouraged, even if victory is not yet at hand. People who accept "lesser of x evils" as all we deserve or can ever have from our elected leadership are the problem, not the solution in my view.
However, Paul has completely ruled out running as a 3rd party - so the need to support him only lasts while he is still in the race.
Now, as to who to support between the other three. First I will say, NOT PERRY. I have said elsewhere that Perry scares the shit out of me. I was supposed to put together a detailed dissertation on why, but just got too damn busy and then got lazy. But Reason #1 is he hired Doug Feith and Donald Rumsfeld as his foreign policy advisers, and I do not think any more wars will do us any good. Perry will take us to war with Iran. So the reason not to support Perry is pretty cut and dried.
This brings it to Obama vs Mitt. This is a bit tougher. If anything Jet, I would think you would not be quite as hostile to Mitt. He is pretty moderate, and used to be more so. Given the track record of our past few Presidents, if anything, Mitt will be far more moderate in office than he tries to sound on the GOP Primary trail, which is exactly why he has not had the enthusiastic support of certain segments of the GOP base.
My problem with Romney is that level of uncertainty regarding his principles. I worry with good reason that his only true principles, much like Obama and Bush before him, are getting elected. His life philosophy might just be " I need to be the most important guy". The reason I love Paul so much, even if I do not agree 100% with him, is he is at least honest with real principles. You don't take such an outlier position, stick with it for decades while trying to convince people of its merits unless you actually believe it.
Anyhow, back to Mitt. The economic plan he outlines the other day actually is not all that bad. He said on the GOP debate, in a confrontation with Perry that he sees a need to save and support Social Security, so he is pretty electable. His Mormonism doesn't bother me, at least he isnt an Evangelical NAR/Dominionist like Perry. He is a reasonably intelligent and capable person. Also, he isnt as virulently anti-abortion or anti-gay. I take "supports a Constitutional Amendment" as code for " I am paying lip service by endorsing something that will never happen so I wont be called on it".
So, I do not fear Mitt quite like I do Perry. Certainly not perfect, but more or less reasonable for a politician and at least not likely to pursue ridiculous legislation of raise my taxes even higher.
Mitt vs Perry : Mitt hands down.
Now about Obama... the thing about Obama is, he swore on the campaign trail to curtail the federal Surveillance state, but instead expanded it. He has ended up not giving two shits about civil liberties in general, nor has he brought the troops home. So whats left? Obamacare. Unneeded and overbearing regulatory additions. Thinks printing more money is the answer to most economic problems. If he had adressed the employment issue out of the gate, I would at least respect him even though liberal employment plans are doomed to fail. But if he tried in his own way, well it would be something. Instead of helping the USA, he helped Pelosi enact her agenda. We now have Obamacare.
Two good things he has done, are signing the new nuke treaty with Russia. ( Opposing this is a strike against Mitt, there's not fucking reason in the 21st century to be picking unnecessary fights with Russia. It makes no strategic sense, thank John McCain for agitating for anothr Cold War.) Also, not bending over for Bibi Netanyahu and Israel's completely incompetent government. Obama has bent over for them more than I would like, but any GOPer other than Paul would probably be even worse in this regard so thats a point for Obama.
In the end... Obamacare is just to disastrous and damaging to the point where it may even be in our interest as a nation to accept another GOP war if it meant getting rid of it... and I do not say that lightly. War is bad, but its also nice having a job and some money. Which much fewer people will thanks to Obamacare and Obamas policies in general. Or maybe I should more accurately say Nancy Pelosi's policies, as Obama has more or less been her sock puppet ever since he took office.
Of course not everyone thinks it will be that bad. But here in Ohio its already pretty bad, and getting worse all the time. Lots of people who have had coverage are seeing their coverage degrade, lots of people are losing what coverage they had as a result of employers who are going to take the tax penalty... leaving them to fork over big dollars out of pocket or pay the Fed. Lots of employers shedding people due to the regulatory burdens, and not hiring for the same reason.
So, Obama vs Mitt..... if it wasnt for Obamacare, Obama would probably edge out Mitt in my book with the caveat that the Dems not control both houses of Congress.
With Obamacare, I have to hope for a Mitt victory and a general GOP victory all around. Hopefully enough to gut Obamacare. Yes, lots of other shit will come with that.. but in this case the devil you dont know is less scary than the devil you know.
Generally speaking, they are all shit. I would support whichever condidate was not likely to have control of both houses of Congress.
Clinton did well because when he was inaugerated, the GOP managed to fillibuster his initial bouts of insanity. For the rest of his term, niether the GOP or the Dems could get the most insane aspects of their pet legislation passed.
The trouble comes when one party has full control. Under Bush, we saw it.. under Obama we saw it... the most destruction occurs when one party rules all. The best case scenario would actually be having Obamacare totally thrown out by the SCOTUS , the GOP keeping the House, the Dems keeping the Senate.. and after that Obama vs Romney would matter a lot less.
"You guys are freaking nuts if you think industries will self regulate and that private enterprise can produce all of the great achievements our government has been able to."
Really???? You have just proved yourself INSANE.
Private enterprises are the only ones that have PRODUCED anything. The federal government doesn't PRODUCE anything it takes money from the people who PRODUCE things.
Wealth isn't produced, it simply exists... "fair distribution" is all that matters.
"You guys are freaking nuts if you think industries will self regulate and that private enterprise can produce all of the great achievements our government has been able to."
Really???? You have just proved yourself INSANE.
Private enterprises are the only ones that have PRODUCED anything. The federal government doesn't PRODUCE anything it takes money from the people who PRODUCE things.
LOL,
Wow, where should I begin. How about the highway system as an example of something that only government could do. How about Hoover Dam? How about the Golden Gate Bridge?
Private Enterprise could have never taken us to the Moon or developed atomic power. Private enterprise could have never saved the world in WW2.
How quickly you forget the great things the American government has accomplished.
Voting for Paul is valid even if he does not win, the more votes "outsider" candidates get, the more comfortable people feel voting for them in the future. Change is slow, but can happen. The proof of this before .........
Gridlock is a good option sometimes. Perhaps until some real change comes around, that is an out for moderate conservatives.
For me, the tea party, and this ultra christian conservative shit scares the hell out of me. Having some Morman cult member as our president while he is wearing his magic Morman underwear (Google it if you don't believe me) scares the living shit out of me.
Actually gov't only funded scientists to put together the atomic bomb. Atomic power plants were most certainly developed and build by private industry. As was all the infrastructure needed to do those projects you mentioned.
Govt can do deeds, but is much less efficient at performing tasks. See the Post Office, or any other bureaucracy.
The military is a different case altogether, noone has ever argued that the gov't has no place building a military.
Also , private enterprise did save the world in WW2. There is a reason we ended up innovating in weapons, and simply producing more guns, bombs, planes and tanks than the Axis. Our fundamental economic system was simply superior to National Socialism.
Actually gov't only funded scientists to put together the atomic bomb. Atomic power plants were most certainly developed and build by private industry. As was all the infrastructure needed to do those projects you mentioned.
Govt can do deeds, but is much less efficient at performing tasks. See the Post Office, or any other bureaucracy.
The military is a different case altogether, noone has ever argued that the gov't has no place building a military.
Also , private enterprise did save the world in WW2. There is a reason we ended up innovating in weapons, and simply producing more guns, bombs, planes and tanks than the Axis. Our fundamental economic system was simply superior to National Socialism.
I have to disagree here.
The mandate of the post office is to deliver to all addresses. In the past this was key. FEDEX and UPS would never deliver to ALL addresses because they would lose money. Sometimes services NEED to be covered by the government. Its the overhead of a free society. Police, Fire, and basic health care were NEVER supposed to be for profit. These are rights in my book.
The Bay Bridge which was managed and funded by the government, and by all of us is one of the busiest in the world and allows thousands of people to get to work each day. Private industry would have NEVER been able to do it, fairly and properly. Sure contractors do the work, but it is managed and funded by all of us.
Private industry DOES NOT do everything well. That is a fact.
Voting for Paul is valid even if he does not win, the more votes "outsider" candidates get, the more comfortable people feel voting for them in the future. Change is slow, but can happen. The proof of this before .........
Gridlock is a good option sometimes. Perhaps until some real change comes around, that is an out for moderate conservatives.
For me, the tea party, and this ultra christian conservative shit scares the hell out of me. Having some Morman cult member as our president while he is wearing his magic Morman underwear (Google it if you don't believe me) scares the living shit out of me.
I am curious where Wolf and Vuldan stand on this.
I dont see how Magic Underwear is any scarier than Jeremiah Wright. I also dont see how Mormons are really any worse than Catholics... or any other religion. I mean, Catholics tell you not to whack off cause you are killing millions of innocent sperm. Is that really any wierder than Magic Underwear?
Actually gov't only funded scientists to put together the atomic bomb. Atomic power plants were most certainly developed and build by private industry. As was all the infrastructure needed to do those projects you mentioned.
Govt can do deeds, but is much less efficient at performing tasks. See the Post Office, or any other bureaucracy.
The military is a different case altogether, noone has ever argued that the gov't has no place building a military.
Also , private enterprise did save the world in WW2. There is a reason we ended up innovating in weapons, and simply producing more guns, bombs, planes and tanks than the Axis. Our fundamental economic system was simply superior to National Socialism.
I have to disagree here.
The mandate of the post office is to deliver to all addresses. In the past this was key. FEDEX and UPS would never deliver to ALL addresses because they would lose money. Sometimes services NEED to be covered by the government. Its the overhead of a free society. Police, Fire, and basic health care were NEVER supposed to be for profit. These are rights in my book.
The Bay Bridge which was managed and funded by the government, and by all of us is one of the busiest in the world and allows thousands of people to get to work each day. Private industry would have NEVER been able to do it, fairly and properly. Sure contractors do the work, but it is managed and funded by all of us.
Private industry DOES NOT do everything well. That is a fact.
I never said the Post Office shouldnt exist. You should know, that the reason some of us like to tease you from time to time is because you are so fond of responding to what you want to argue against as opposed to what was said.
The Post Office is inefficient, that is a fact.
I do agree it should exist though, in fact the Constitution specifically provides for it. Apparently the Founders thought it was a pretty good idea for the Federal Gov;t to run a Post as well.
Also, who ever said Police or Fire should be private? Not me, or anyone else here that I have seen.
As for the Bridge in question, it goes back to the Deed vs Task issue I just mentioned. Gov't can bring private resources together to achieve One Particular Deed... but managing ongoing tasks is a different story altogether.
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
If I had to vote between those 3, I would have to say I wouldn't vote. But at the sametime as you say I want to pick one of the lesser evils. I would in the end have to go with Romney. First look at Perry and I thought, maybe he won't be so bad. But after looking further into it. He's a no go. If Obama had his way we would have a complete government ran healthcare system, more taxes for those millionaires (you know the $250,000 a year millionaires) instead of reforming the tax system and having something a little more fair. Obama's change was about chaning into a more socialist Government. Instead of going right for the juggler on Government ran healthcare, why not start with tort reform, cutting red tape that really has no impact on savings or healthcare just added cost. AGAIN... this doesn't mean we don't need regualtion. Remember the Constitution isn't very long, yet it covers pretty much everything in our lives. Consider that compared to say... the many thousands of pages of tax laws that even the douchebags that make them have no clue about them (see Charlie Rangel) So it's my belief Romney is the lesser of the Evils. He's going to be the same douche as the rest of them. And that's sad, that we can't find someone with a population this size that's willing to be a REAL leader. I guess it's up to us, as long as we don't vote in douchebags, WE can change it.
When we vote in dummies like Maxine Waters & Bachmann to public office, how the hell are we going to get anything done?
Jet, since you didnt read my other thread I will post this here. It is a write in to The Atlantic ( a left leaning mag) by someone from Ohio. I interact with a great many small business owners in my line of work, and I can say that this view is absolutely spot on. This is how people feel around here.
From another reader in the Midwest, about the plight of the well-meaning small business owner: ----------------------------- >>While I do talk to people with much the same narrative as your university librarian (we live in a college town, I work at a nearby branch of the state university), I'd note that I could sit here and type out similar narratives of frustration and despair, but from people who are almost by definition semantically excluded from those categories.
They're people I work with in church and Scouts and neighborhood activities who own and run businesses of three to thirty some fulltime employees, and they talk about how hard it has become to have fulltime employees, to manage their businesses, and to navigate local, state, and federal regulation. Any entrepreneur over 25 talks constantly about the upsweep of the curve, and in my opinion, especially the three or four I know most personally, how challenged they are by the whole health insurance situation along with all that.
My sense is that they WANT to do right by their employees, and they want to be above, but not ridiculously above, the average wage rate for our area, but the gamesmanship of finding a plan for their twelve or twenty employees is sucking huge amounts of their time, and only to end up paying dramatically more for what they then have to tell their employees is less coverage, both in their contributions and co-pays, and in what gets covered. I am president of a non-profit with twenty to thirty employees over these last eight years I've been in the saddle, and every two years we go thru exactly that, so I know what they're talking about.
I try to present the upside of a basic single payer national health policy, and removing health care insurability from employment status, and they're intrigued and attracted, but ultimately, fearful of a health care bureaucracy that echoes what they already deal with in employment and workplace issues, and so turn away . . . and are easily lured to the simplistic rants of Tea Party "starve the beast" anti-Obama voices.
That said, I do think there's a progressive/moderate case to be made that government is getting too intrusive into daily life (just got back from a parent meeting where we were told, due to federal regulations, that no bake sales can happen at school for any reason, period -- there's one fine example right in front of me), and yet is not as responsive as it should be when it ought: if I may mention your competition, this web article has gotten much play among the folks I'm talking about .
So there's a "mood of revolt" among those who have not, and I am both concerned by and sympathetic to the reasons why that is, but I think there should be a fair presentation of the "mood of resistance" that is out there among those who could be hiring, but are saying "yes, I have an extra $50,000 in the budget, but if I hire someone and it costs me $75,000, it could bring down half the company, so NO."
I hope that view from Ohio is useful to you.<< --------------------------------------
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
Given those choices and no other, which I actually have the right to vote other (In my case, even tho he has little chance of winning, Ron Paul will get my vote), but, if there were only those 3 available to me Jet, Romney would receive my vote hands down.
The reason Romney scares politicians and people is that they can not pin down what a Romney Presidency would actually look like. He may dable in the political arena, but he is a businessman first and foremost. This makes him an unknown commodity. I do believe his policies and direction would be good for the country economically and with respect to making enroads to clearing up the debt, IF, he could also depend on a balanced house and senate. I would suggest that Romney's ability to be flexible, rather than hardlined, is a good thing for him. In reality, none of us can really know what he would do, but of those 3 choices, he would be the best available. Of those 3 candidates, his record shows that he has the ability to look past the pettyness of party and choose people who will work based on ability and whatever vision is present. I would suggest the American people will keep their welfare as a strong vision, since so many continue to believe it's the governments job to improve their lives. As such, Romney will also be the liberal democrats best hope of holding on to some of the ridiculous things Obama has put into place. Not all of them mind you. I am convinced Romney will do away with this nightmare health bs and come up with something better and more appropriate, which would be Insurance Reform, if we must have the government messing in captolistic systems. A huge mistake by the way, but not one I see changing soon.
As far as Obama is concerned, we deserve (we being the metaphorical American, not me personnally) everything he has done to us. He had nothing to offer in the way of political focus, national respect or international capacity beyond the color of his skin. And thus, we get what we paid for. Anyone who does not understand the reality only has to look at the direct result of the government taking over GM to see where Obama's "give a shit" really rests. The Union and the "elite rich" of GM benefitted from that, the shareholders got stabbed in the ass and the continued unwillingnness of people to invest in major companies of the country continues out of fear of that happening again. His complete disregard of the US Constitution is abhorrent, and his political circus bs is pathetic. He got his deal for the debt ceiling so he could go on vacation. PHA...ass.
I sincerely wish for the revolution to begin, for the Veterans to take over and bring this whole system in line..oh wait..that is Starship Troopers...not the worst thing that could happen. :-)
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
I sincerely wish for the revolution to begin, for the Veterans to take over and bring this whole system in line..
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
Given those choices and no other, which I actually have the right to vote other (In my case, even tho he has little chance of winning, Ron Paul will get my vote), but, if there were only those 3 available to me Jet, Romney would receive my vote hands down.
The reason Romney scares politicians and people is that they can not pin down what a Romney Presidency would actually look like. He may dable in the political arena, but he is a businessman first and foremost. This makes him an unknown commodity. I do believe his policies and direction would be good for the country economically and with respect to making enroads to clearing up the debt, IF, he could also depend on a balanced house and senate. I would suggest that Romney's ability to be flexible, rather than hardlined, is a good thing for him. In reality, none of us can really know what he would do, but of those 3 choices, he would be the best available. Of those 3 candidates, his record shows that he has the ability to look past the pettyness of party and choose people who will work based on ability and whatever vision is present. I would suggest the American people will keep their welfare as a strong vision, since so many continue to believe it's the governments job to improve their lives. As such, Romney will also be the liberal democrats best hope of holding on to some of the ridiculous things Obama has put into place. Not all of them mind you. I am convinced Romney will do away with this nightmare health bs and come up with something better and more appropriate, which would be Insurance Reform, if we must have the government messing in captolistic systems. A huge mistake by the way, but not one I see changing soon.
As far as Obama is concerned, we deserve (we being the metaphorical American, not me personnally) everything he has done to us. He had nothing to offer in the way of political focus, national respect or international capacity beyond the color of his skin. And thus, we get what we paid for. Anyone who does not understand the reality only has to look at the direct result of the government taking over GM to see where Obama's "give a shit" really rests. The Union and the "elite rich" of GM benefitted from that, the shareholders got stabbed in the ass and the continued unwillingnness of people to invest in major companies of the country continues out of fear of that happening again. His complete disregard of the US Constitution is abhorrent, and his political circus bs is pathetic. He got his deal for the debt ceiling so he could go on vacation. PHA...ass.
I sincerely wish for the revolution to begin, for the Veterans to take over and bring this whole system in line..oh wait..that is Starship Troopers...not the worst thing that could happen. :-)
I think you should start drinking bottled water Vuldan.
Actually gov't only funded scientists to put together the atomic bomb. Atomic power plants were most certainly developed and build by private industry. As was all the infrastructure needed to do those projects you mentioned.
Govt can do deeds, but is much less efficient at performing tasks. See the Post Office, or any other bureaucracy.
The military is a different case altogether, noone has ever argued that the gov't has no place building a military.
Also , private enterprise did save the world in WW2. There is a reason we ended up innovating in weapons, and simply producing more guns, bombs, planes and tanks than the Axis. Our fundamental economic system was simply superior to National Socialism.
I have to disagree here.
The mandate of the post office is to deliver to all addresses. In the past this was key. FEDEX and UPS would never deliver to ALL addresses because they would lose money. Sometimes services NEED to be covered by the government. Its the overhead of a free society. Police, Fire, and basic health care were NEVER supposed to be for profit. These are rights in my book.
The Bay Bridge which was managed and funded by the government, and by all of us is one of the busiest in the world and allows thousands of people to get to work each day. Private industry would have NEVER been able to do it, fairly and properly. Sure contractors do the work, but it is managed and funded by all of us.
Private industry DOES NOT do everything well. That is a fact.
I never said the Post Office shouldnt exist. You should know, that the reason some of us like to tease you from time to time is because you are so fond of responding to what you want to argue against as opposed to what was said.
The Post Office is inefficient, that is a fact.
I do agree it should exist though, in fact the Constitution specifically provides for it. Apparently the Founders thought it was a pretty good idea for the Federal Gov;t to run a Post as well.
Also, who ever said Police or Fire should be private? Not me, or anyone else here that I have seen.
As for the Bridge in question, it goes back to the Deed vs Task issue I just mentioned. Gov't can bring private resources together to achieve One Particular Deed... but managing ongoing tasks is a different story altogether.
I was not speaking to you about the post office. Someone else brought it up.
As for only arguing what I want to argue, you guys do the same exact thing all the time. My excuse is that I dont have time to respond to everything.
As for your statement regarding the Atomic Bomb? Name one private company that any of the people at White Sands worked for. They were clearly on the government payroll.
It boggles the mind that you guys fail to recognize some of the amazing accomplishments of our government. Government is needed, and only it can so some things. Self regulation in capitalism is a total joke. The ideas contradict each other. Imagine the NFL with now refs, it would be a total Hockey fight.
We have fundamental differences in our views as to our government and it's roll. None of us are going to change the others minds. All we can ever hope for is that the majority of the public agrees with our specific views.
All I can say, is there there is no mainstream candidate that agrees with your guys views. Not voting is just being part of the problem.
As for health care, I have a great job, and great insurance, and don't need anything different now. I do however have compassion for the people that have no insurance, and ruin their futures and credit if they get sick, and are forced into emergency room medical care that they can never afford to pay. And as Derid said about me, this is something that none of you have addressed that I have brought up before. Heath care to me is a right, not a privilege. If you want to go back to survival of the fittest, then move to a desert island. Oh wait survival of the fittest is key to evolution, and you guys and the candidates you support don't believe in science or evolution, so that is a moot argument.
"The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid."
Wow, where should I begin. How about the highway system as an example of something that only government could do. How about Hoover Dam? How about the Golden Gate Bridge?
Private Enterprise could have never taken us to the Moon or developed atomic power. Private enterprise could have never saved the world in WW2.
How quickly you forget the great things the American government has accomplished."
The government doesn't make anything,they take money from us then pay private company's to build things, they can pay for this because they can spend more money then any private company can afford to spend because they would go broke. Not to mention the amount of money they waste on over paying for everything they do. Once again they do not PRODUCE anything. You can look at it one way, they are the only company that can spend as much as they want but make nothing to sell to make the money they spend. The idea that government should be able to spend as much as they want is what got us into this problem now. Health care could be affordable if we could control the spending on all the b.s.
The federal gov. should only be spending money on very few things, Military,interstate system to name a few.
The police and firefighters are local city, state and have nothing to do with fed.
"and the candidates you support don't believe in science or evolution, so that is a moot argument." Who doesn't believe in science? I have never heard this one.
Jet, you are still failing to perceive the difference between a task and a deed.
To put it differently, its the conceptual difference between utilizing a market, and managing a market. When the government manages a market, or over inserts itself - suddenly it is politics that determines pricing and who gets what. This is not good.
Most pressing example you might ask? Housing. The financial crash. But, you might say, " wasnt the fault of greedy capitalists?". The answer is not so simple.
The housing bubble was caused because the govt was underwriting hundreds of billions in bad loans via Freddia and Fannie, and HUD et al make it politically and regulatorily necessary to extend loans to bad borrowers. Gov't intervention made for many millions more buyers than there would have otherwise been, thus inflating housing prices. Govt backing of the bad loans let shady Wall St types repackage them as securities ( hey its a great investment, the gov't is backing it! ) and sell them.
For some reason , a lot of people do not like to look past the involvement of a few dirty capitalists. And yeah, in any society, even if the old Soviet Union, when gov't gave people a legal way to fleece people... there is ALWAYS someone willing to take up that task. Capitalism as a system is about competition and letting the free market set value.... which is what was NOT happening in regards to the housing market, hence its collapse. Look at Medicare and other gov't intervention, and you will see that Health care costs are absurdly high not because of enough govt involvement but because of too much.
Also, I can say that Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness are rights. I do not count health care as a right.
Anyhow, I am more curious as to your thought about the person from Ohio writing in to the Atlantic a few posts back. If you want to talk about real effects of Obamaism on real people, that is a good place to start the conversation.
Especially since if this mood persists in Ohio, and Rick Perry gets the GOP nod... he WILL be the next president. If Perry carries Ohio he wins. Obama and his supporters ought to pay a little bit of attention to the plight of midwesterners if they truly want to keep govt from being dominated by right wing extremists, because that is where their policies are driving us.
The real ramification of the policies set by Pelosi and the Left over in Cali that let the Left feel good about themselves as they reduce carbon, give everyone free stuff, etc.... is extremely damaging to the lives and livelihoods of people in other parts of the country.
Got some news for you, most people here in Ohio actually believe in science. But we still hate Obama.
Government(State) should give security,health care,education for free and it´s not a comunism thing.
If you do not have the money to pay your medical problem or of your´s children because your job only allow you to have enough money to pay to have a house and pay your´s childrens food. Should be a obligation of government to supply a Medical system of quality.
When you have a government spending too much money on military endeavours, neglecting education,health care,security and job creating, you have a big problem for the future.
I heard from tv that for the first time USA will have a generation that has less education that their parents. That will have a big impact on jobs and economy.
Wow, where should I begin. How about the highway system as an example of something that only government could do. How about Hoover Dam? How about the Golden Gate Bridge?
Private Enterprise could have never taken us to the Moon or developed atomic power. Private enterprise could have never saved the world in WW2.
How quickly you forget the great things the American government has accomplished."
The government doesn't make anything,they take money from us then pay private company's to build things, they can pay for this because they can spend more money then any private company can afford to spend because they would go broke. Not to mention the amount of money they waste on over paying for everything they do. Once again they do not PRODUCE anything. You can look at it one way, they are the only company that can spend as much as they want but make nothing to sell to make the money they spend. The idea that government should be able to spend as much as they want is what got us into this problem now. Health care could be affordable if we could control the spending on all the b.s.
The federal gov. should only be spending money on very few things, Military,interstate system to name a few.
The police and firefighters are local city, state and have nothing to do with fed.
"and the candidates you support don't believe in science or evolution, so that is a moot argument." Who doesn't believe in science? I have never heard this one.
The NFL line was lame.
Ever heard of the Army corps of engineers?
Your statement is simply wrong that the government does not produce anything.
Again, the Manhattan project was a government run and paid project that produces nuclear power. The Government "Produced" this. How about all the science NASA has funded that has been turned into great things in the private sector?
The housing bubble was caused because the govt was underwriting hundreds of billions in bad loans via Freddia and Fannie, and HUD et al make it politically and regulatorily necessary to extend loans to bad borrowers. Gov't intervention made for many millions more buyers than there would have otherwise been, thus inflating housing prices. Govt backing of the bad loans let shady Wall St types repackage them as securities ( hey its a great investment, the gov't is backing it! ) and sell them.
You know I respect you Derid, but blaming Fannie and Freddie for Credit Default Swaps is just nuts!
Originally Posted By: Derid
For some reason , a lot of people do not like to look past the involvement of a few dirty capitalists. And yeah, in any society, even if the old Soviet Union, when gov't gave people a legal way to fleece people... there is ALWAYS someone willing to take up that task. Capitalism as a system is about competition and letting the free market set value.... which is what was NOT happening in regards to the housing market, hence its collapse. Look at Medicare and other gov't intervention, and you will see that Health care costs are absurdly high not because of enough govt involvement but because of too much.
I hate it when people bring up the Soviet Union. I am in no way a communist. How can you say that Police and law enforcement are not needed and protection is not a right. How about defense by a fire department for damage and first response to injury? Well as soon as they help you you are on your own in your opinion. That to me is cruel. If you are a legal citizen of this country, you should be safe and have health care.
Getting everyone covered will reduce costs. No more expensive emergency room health care that NOONE PAYS FOR thereby jacking up the price for the honest folks like me. Preventative medicine goes a long way.
How about enforcing immigration law and policy so I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS HEALTH AND EDUCATION!
You guys just don't make sense. I cant wait until you turn 65.
You are right about education Mithus. Though a lot of our discussion here is also about the role of Federal vs Local government. The Federal govt involvement in lower education has been disastrous.
I actually think that Federal Student Loans are OK... even though Federal higher education financing has been a primary reason the cost of higher education keeps skyrocketing.
The problem with health care though on a Federal level.. well there are a few.
If you or anyone could answer a few questions, I would think it a lot more sane...
1) How do you keep a Fed Health system even slightly fair, without criminalizing unhealthy behavior? AKA unless we start throwing people in jail for eating too much cake, why the fuck should I or anyone pay for some fatass who eats 12000 calories of junk a day to have 4 heart surgeries?
2) Supply vs Demand is a real force, and all economics follows it - its as concrete as a law of physics - simply put, the more people want something the higher the price. The price may not always be in terms of money... one example is the old Soviet bread lines. The cost was reasonable in terms of money per loaf, but there simply was not enough.. so people had to wait in line. So, the question is what system do you use for doling out the finite amount of health care available in response to a potentially unlimited number of requests to access care?
3) How do you encourage companies to do expensive research and testing of new treatments and drugs, if they will no longer make a good profit? - Also, if the market is no longer setting the price of treatments... what metrics can you use to set "fair" pricing? Remember, if you do not make it lucrative for the companies they will no longer seek new treatments, but if you let them, they will have everyone paying 1000$ a day for some treatment they do not need... (not to mention all the grey areas, where people can be kept alive an extended period but at great financial cost. ) So.... if you take the free market out of the equation, how do you properly set the pricing for these treatments and services? ( please note, that such a certrally managed economic system has never worked on a large scale for ANYTHING, EVER, in the ENTIRE history of humankind. It always has ended up in the destruction of said economy/industry, a mess of utter corruption and bureaucratic incompetence. Without exception, and without fail.)
So, how can these fundamental issues be addressed? Lots of people like to think that those of us who oppose things like free health care oppose it because we want people to suffer or something... not because we think it is utterly impossible to provide in an equitable manner. Thats just not the case.
The housing bubble was caused because the govt was underwriting hundreds of billions in bad loans via Freddia and Fannie, and HUD et al make it politically and regulatorily necessary to extend loans to bad borrowers. Gov't intervention made for many millions more buyers than there would have otherwise been, thus inflating housing prices. Govt backing of the bad loans let shady Wall St types repackage them as securities ( hey its a great investment, the gov't is backing it! ) and sell them.
You know I respect you Derid, but blaming Fannie and Freddie for Credit Default Swaps is just nuts!
Originally Posted By: Derid
For some reason , a lot of people do not like to look past the involvement of a few dirty capitalists. And yeah, in any society, even if the old Soviet Union, when gov't gave people a legal way to fleece people... there is ALWAYS someone willing to take up that task. Capitalism as a system is about competition and letting the free market set value.... which is what was NOT happening in regards to the housing market, hence its collapse. Look at Medicare and other gov't intervention, and you will see that Health care costs are absurdly high not because of enough govt involvement but because of too much.
I hate it when people bring up the Soviet Union. I am in no way a communist. How can you say that Police and law enforcement are not needed and protection is not a right. How about defense by a fire department for damage and first response to injury? Well as soon as they help you you are on your own in your opinion. That to me is cruel. If you are a legal citizen of this country, you should be safe and have health care.
Getting everyone covered will reduce costs. No more expensive emergency room health care that NOONE PAYS FOR thereby jacking up the price for the honest folks like me. Preventative medicine goes a long way.
How about enforcing immigration law and policy so I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS HEALTH AND EDUCATION!
You guys just don't make sense. I cant wait until you turn 65.
Credit default swaps would have worked actually, and were not allowed to take their course because the people underwriting the swaps were politically connected enough to keep from having to pay them. The thing that caused the panic, was that noone was certain just how deep the liabilities went, and who was holding them. There likely would have been a lot less uncertainty a week after the collapse, had default swaps been allowed to play themselves out, and anyone over-exposed allowed to fail.
Bernake certainly thought that Goldman Sachs and all his buddies among the Wall St elite were much too important to America to be allowed to fail, but that does not make it objective reality.
---- edit
Jet, I bring up the Soviets simply because they are an example of a managed economy. It is not meant to imply you are a Soviet.
Also, this discussion is about Federal duties. I do not think my fire dept should be run by a giant Fed bureaucracy.... I think my local fire dept does quite well thank you. No, I do not want it supplanted or controlled by an irresponsible and incompetent Federal Bureaucrat..
Also, this discussion is about Federal duties. I do not think my fire dept should be run by a giant Fed bureaucracy.... I think my local fire dept does quite well thank you. No, I do not want it supplanted or controlled by an irresponsible and incompetent Federal Bureaucrat..
All problems that you discuss can be solved by Darwinism...as it should be. The US has already screwed up it's own view on imperialism so at this point its either expand or isolate. There is no middle ground there.
If we follow history we know that soon there should be another total war. Until then.
Get rid of welfare and let people who are too lazy to work starve to death.
Start raising taxes on imports.
Tax the hell out of US founded corps that move operations over seas.
STOP LETTING FOREIGNERS BUY OUR REFINERIES!!!
Stop giving immigrants free money just for moving here.
Close the borders or build housing communities with schools that teach immigrants the basics of being an American and make them work for it. (You call it indentured servitude if you like but equivalent exchange is the basic fundamental of all life.)
Stop treating politics like a sport.
Another US civil war is incoming. (Edward Casey said so.)
you pay taxes and those taxes goes to government and you want a good use of your money.
local,state,federal are all government branchs it doesnt matter, you pay your taxes and city,state and federal government get a part of it to distribute and give you services that you need, like security(police,fire departmente),education and of course health system if you cannot pay for a private one, like a private school.
You pay taxes to the government, Why not a small percentage of your taxes goes to medical care system, the same thing goes to education and security, in the end you pay for it.
As incentive for medical and drugs discoveries, it´s not different like when the government pay for ultra expensive military jets and equipment. The government should pay with your taxes for drugs and give those companies that discovery 20 years of patente rights, like it does with military.
Did you see how france and england take care of people? is something wrong with them not paying directly for medical care. It will not drive any medical discoveries away.
want to solve problem with imigrants? start jailing people that explore imigrant work, because they can pay less, hypocrisy if you say that didnt know it was imigrant, of course you want to pay less than you should pay for a native american.
If imigrants are criminals, what to talk about people that employ them, it´s remind me of slavery time, of course you pay them but is always less than regular citizen.
Imigrant and Drugs problems seems to share similarities, as long people want to buy drugs, it will have people trying to sell them, as long people want to hire people to pay less that should pay, it will have people risking to enter the country ilegaly.
you pay taxes and those taxes goes to government and you want a good use of your money.
local,state,federal are all government branchs it doesnt matter, you pay your taxes and city,state and federal government get a part of it to distribute and give you services that you need, like security(police,fire departmente),education and of course health system if you cannot pay for a private one, like a private school.
You pay taxes to the government, Why not a small percentage of your taxes goes to medical care system, the same thing goes to education and security, in the end you pay for it.
As incentive for medical and drugs discoveries, it´s not different like when the government pay for ultra expensive military jets and equipment. The government should pay with your taxes for drugs and give those companies that discovery 20 years of patente rights, like it does with military.
Did you see how france and england take care of people? is something wrong with them not paying directly for medical care. It will not drive any medical discoveries away.
Jet, for me the discussion is and always has been about Federal level. I never thought you had any different idea since the topic was started via discussion of Presidential candidate, I thought it went without saying.
Mithus, I just laid out the reasons why not. What you are saying sounds good as a generalization, but the devil is in the details. Someone has to actually make it work. The difference in how were are looking at it could be summed up with an analogy about building a bridge.
You say " well, if we just gather some money from people and I guess buy some metal and stuff and maybe hire a few more folk to help put it up... we will have a bridge"
I say " well, to make this bridge work we need to figure out which material, how much it will weigh, how much it will cost. What the tension wire needs to be, what the foundation needs to be, how much overburden it can safely carry if all goes well... which cranes, bulldozers, etc we need to procure. Need to hire people with specific skills to do X and Y and Z jobs.. and so on and so forth. The nuts and bolts of building a bridge that will not collapse is an entirely different matter than conceptualizing the idea of building a bridge. If you do not work out all those details, even if a bridge ends up getting somehow build... it is most likely to quickly collapse and kill a bunch of people. Much like Socialized medicine.
Getting shit done is entirely different that the idea of getting shit done. One is easy, and one is hard.
And yes, we all see how France and England take care of people... and we also see how they are broke, have broken societies with almost no social mobility, have rampant and growing unrest and rioting. Both societies have been rotting for some time, both bought into the idea of taking care of everyone.... and both are quickly headed towards the fate of Greece.
ok, tell me how to solve the problem of you have your parent or your children with a serious medical problem with a expensive treatment, and you do not have money to pay for it?
I do not and will not endorse taking your money at gunpoint to deal with my family issues. I would ask that you had the same respect for me.
edit -
I forgot you are from Brazil. So you may or may not know that Constitutionally, in the USA, each State is actualy supposed to have a very high degree of autonomy. I actually have far fewer objections to assistance programs run at the state level and lower. Firstly, because it is actually Constitutional to do so.
Secondly, because the responsible govt officials are much closer to the population in terms of accountability.... the ratio of representation is also much better. If you have an issue with a Washington beauracrat.... good luck... your hosed unless you know a newspaper editor or have enough money to retain a skilled attorney.
At the state level, your still mostly screwed... but not quite as badly... and if it becomes a major issue for a lot of people it is relatively easy to hold elected officials accountable. Not easy, just much easier than holding the federal govt accountable... which is almost impossible.
Pretty much every State in the USA is larger either in terms of population or land... usually both... than quite a few actual countries in the world.. not to mention GDP and overall wealth. There is simply no reason to tie up a huge system like health care in one gigantic, opaque, unaccountable bureaucracy.
If people in Ohio want to cook up our own health care at the State level... then fine. But we sure as hell dont need people from Cali or DC or Chicago telling us what we need and how to do it.
Government(State) should give security,health care,education for free and it´s not a comunism thing.
When it comes to Government GIVING ANYTHING, it's not free. It's paid by taxes. We have security, we have programs that HELP with healthcare like Medicade and Medicare, States also have similar programs. There is help with Education as well, no it's not free but help is there and if you work hard enough for it, you can actually help yourself with public grants and such.
Quote:
If you do not have the money to pay your medical problem or of your´s children because your job only allow you to have enough money to pay to have a house and pay your´s childrens food. Should be a obligation of government to supply a Medical system of quality.
If you only make so much money per year, there's healthcare programs that will help, as I mentioned above. Our healthcare system needs to be reformed, but the Government SHOULD NOT by any means, take it over. Government bureaucracy is a large part of the problem with the way healthcare is here. Another one is for Instance, I live in Oklahoma I cannot buy healthcare Insurance in another state even if it's cheaper. So what this does is cut competition, which means Insurance companies can raise the price of Insurance. And without competition offering cheaper Insurance they don't have to worry about lowering their's. This is just a small part of a larger picture. But the main issue is, when you give Government more and more control over things like healthcare in your life, what else are they going to take? Today it's more taxes, Tomorrow it could be your guns, less rights, again MORE taxes. The left already wants all of this. And THAT is socialism... and that's a Government I DO NOT want to live in. If Socialism is such a grand scheme, all of Europe along with other countries around the world would be flourishing. Instead, they are in very deep debt.
Their problem with debt is they spend on the many social programs they have. We have our social programs as well that cost a lot of money. On top of everything else we do, we also send Billions of dollars of AID overseas to other countries. And yes, fighting two wars, along with Government spending out of control we are in great debt. If we had a Government that stayed within their means in spending, and that was more efficient it would ease a lot of our problems. Now if you want to go further, we could keep most of the AID we send overseas. That along with keeping spending under control and a new tax system, we could put a pretty big dent in our debt. So remember, nothing is FREE... it's all paid by taxes.
You can not put in the hands of private companies, certain essential services.
You can not put the defense of your country, your police, your education system in the hands of a private corporation, as you should not put the Health of your people on the hands of private corporation, because to them what matter is the profit, you cannot measure what´s the price of human life. You should not make decision on how much you cost a treatment.
There are essential services should be managed by government and security,education,health care are essential. It´s good remind why do you have a government, to promote the common good, which pillars are security,education,health.
So want to have profit? go fund a new software,automobile,food or whatever industry you like, there are some sectors that you cannot put profit as base of decisions.
You do not know the extension of a health system managed by a big corporation, they define every thing, you cannot fight against them.
The discussion about which level or branch of government like state or federal would be in charge of it, is another history and discussion.
You have the cost of hospital(and espensive equipmenst) you have the cost of doctors and medics, you have the cost of medicines, so over the work and cost of everything you still to pay for the profit of a big corporation that in truth do not do anything, but ditacted how much they will pay for the doctor and hospital and drugs for your payment?
You can not put in the hands of private companies, certain essential services.
You can not put the defense of your country, your police, your education system in the hands of a private corporation, as you should not put the Health of your people on the hands of private corporation, because to them what matter is the profit, you cannot measure what´s the price of human life. You should not make decision on how much you cost a treatment.
There are essential services should be managed by government and security,education,health care are essential. It´s good remind why do you have a government, to promote the common good, which pillars are security,education,health.
So want to have profit? go fund a new software,automobile,food or whatever industry you like, there are some sectors that you cannot put profit as base of decisions.
You do not know the extension of a health system managed by a big corporation, they define every thing, you cannot fight against them.
The discussion about which level or branch of government like state or federal would be in charge of it, is another history and discussion.
I have to disagree. You can put a price on someones lives: that's how much they cost to be saved. You could say everything must be done whatever the price in some things but if "whatever the price" include other people's work or rare resources it means either endorsing slavery or not caring about how better used those rare resource may be later on. And guess what? Healthcare means people's work. So saying you don't care about how much it cost to save one life means you don't care about the hours doctors and nurses will have to work to save this person.
you spoke right, healthcare means people´s work, and like police officers, and other profission they are paid for the services. My concern is corporations that inflcuency doctors and nurses decisions on their work, like we see doctors saying things against those corporations.
I didnt understandt what you disagree, because I didnt say that doctors,nurses,medicines companies and etcs should not be well paid for their work.
I´m mainly saying that like security, education, health care would/should be a government matter because not everyone can pay for it, and everybody like in United declaration of Human Rights has the right to life and dignity.
. So saying you don't care about how much it cost to save one life means you don't care about the hours doctors and nurses will have to work to save this person.
Give you an weird example, miners get stuck at mine, can you say that theirs rescue will cost thousand of dollars because it will need an expensive machine that for example need come by plane or etc..., and it´s not worth of saving their life? What´s the difference to another situation when people has health life problem,
Can the "state" be absent and do not use their resources to save the same people life? i do not get it.
Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.
I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.
Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.
Actually as we break this down, we come closer and closer to agreement.
Wolfgang, you are actually starting to make sense.
Believe you me, I am not 100% for everything democratic. I am just picking the lessor of two evils.
So what is it going to be Wolf, Derid, and Vuldam? Perry, Romney, or Obama? I am so curious who you would choose if it came down to it. Then after you make your decision, lets break down their policies and what it means to America for the next 4 to 8 years.
This is going to be interesting if you guys go along with this thread.
Given those choices and no other, which I actually have the right to vote other (In my case, even tho he has little chance of winning, Ron Paul will get my vote), but, if there were only those 3 available to me Jet, Romney would receive my vote hands down.
The reason Romney scares politicians and people is that they can not pin down what a Romney Presidency would actually look like. He may dable in the political arena, but he is a businessman first and foremost. This makes him an unknown commodity. I do believe his policies and direction would be good for the country economically and with respect to making enroads to clearing up the debt, IF, he could also depend on a balanced house and senate. I would suggest that Romney's ability to be flexible, rather than hardlined, is a good thing for him. In reality, none of us can really know what he would do, but of those 3 choices, he would be the best available. Of those 3 candidates, his record shows that he has the ability to look past the pettyness of party and choose people who will work based on ability and whatever vision is present. I would suggest the American people will keep their welfare as a strong vision, since so many continue to believe it's the governments job to improve their lives. As such, Romney will also be the liberal democrats best hope of holding on to some of the ridiculous things Obama has put into place. Not all of them mind you. I am convinced Romney will do away with this nightmare health bs and come up with something better and more appropriate, which would be Insurance Reform, if we must have the government messing in captolistic systems. A huge mistake by the way, but not one I see changing soon.
As far as Obama is concerned, we deserve (we being the metaphorical American, not me personnally) everything he has done to us. He had nothing to offer in the way of political focus, national respect or international capacity beyond the color of his skin. And thus, we get what we paid for. Anyone who does not understand the reality only has to look at the direct result of the government taking over GM to see where Obama's "give a shit" really rests. The Union and the "elite rich" of GM benefitted from that, the shareholders got stabbed in the ass and the continued unwillingnness of people to invest in major companies of the country continues out of fear of that happening again. His complete disregard of the US Constitution is abhorrent, and his political circus bs is pathetic. He got his deal for the debt ceiling so he could go on vacation. PHA...ass.
I sincerely wish for the revolution to begin, for the Veterans to take over and bring this whole system in line..oh wait..that is Starship Troopers...not the worst thing that could happen. :-)
I think you should start drinking bottled water Vuldan.
Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.
I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.
Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.
Is hard to put a concept to you, let´s change to a situation where kids get stuck in a cave while exploring a forest... OMG . Or for example 9/11 tragedy where people where stuck at debris and would tooooo expensive to save them, would you accept the "State" saying would be too expensive, why i´m asking this, i know your anwser because in your view, you are a indivudalist :), and you would answer is their responsability to put in that situation.
Health care may be considered a right in Brazil, Mithus, but here in the United States the only rights we enjoy are to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Every other right is derived from those 3. Health care cannot be derived from those three, although my ability to choose which healthcare, or whether or not to have healthcare, can be derived from them. Some examples are:
1. No one has a right to take my life from me a) reasonable use of force may be used to preserve my life when threatened, up to and including killing the person trying to take my life. 2. I am free to live my life in whatever way I like as long as I don't infringe upon someone else's rights. 3. My ability to pursue (not a guarantee that I will find it) happiness may not be infringed upon by the government or other citizens 4. You have the right to seek whatever healthcare you'd like, but you may not infringe on my rights by forcefully taking my work to pay for your care.
*edit* As to your scenario about the kids stuck in a cave, we have the best police, firemen and rescue workers in the world and they will spare no expense to save some one in dire need. That is a service that we pay for with our state and local taxes, not a right. For anyone who believes that the POTUS has any say over whether or not your local firemen and police officers get paid you may rest assured that he does not, but it sure makes for a good sound bite to scare folks with. Just like the ones that suggest that folks who are currently retired will be kicked off of SSI if a conservative gets elected. That's just complete nonsense. However, anyone who is under 40 and thinks they are going to get SSI when they retire is seriously deluded.
Individualist: one that pursues a markedly independent course in thought or action
Individualism and those 3 rights are what our country was founded upon Mithus. Despite attempts to lump us all into baskets of this or that many of us believe very firmly that it is our duty to the country that affords us these rights to act in the spirit of our founding fathers by individually seeking success and happiness for our families, rather than rely on the largess of others.
ok let put aside all the law and etcs, I just want to undersand how you guy view this
in a hypothetical case do you agree if a parcel of your popuation cannot pay for a private health care, they should not receive medical treatment, and the government with their power and resources that they get with your hard work from taxes should not intervene to give this parcel of population health care.
Is that correct to your point of view, I mean to you agree that they should no receive medical treatment because they cannot pay for that?
Actually I would say their employer has the responsibility to dig them out in that case.
I would not say it is MY responsibility to pay to dig them out though. Except indirectly as I purchase goods made from whatever they were digging for... which that money ends up going to their employer, which should be responsible for rescuing their employees.
Making the gov't pay for it just encourages employers to send people into mines they know are unsafe because if something happens they would not be the ones footing the bill.
Is hard to put a concept to you, let´s change to a situation where kids get stuck in a cave while exploring a forest... OMG . Or for example 9/11 tragedy where people where stuck at debris and would tooooo expensive to save them, would you accept the "State" saying would be too expensive, why i´m asking this, i know your anwser because in your view, you are a indivudalist :), and you would answer is their responsability to put in that situation.
In the USA emergency services are handled at the State and local level. Sometimes people are in fact billed for said services if it is found that they needed them due to negligence. The Federal Govt has put in its hand at disaster management in recent years, to disasterous results.
Even though it is called the "National Guard", in the USA the National Guard is actually a form of State level militia. The NG is usually the responsible party for major disaster/rescue operations.
Also, you should be aware that you are not comparing similar issues. Managing someones health care for them is an ongoing task. Rescuing someone is an isolated Deed. There is a huge difference between managing a system like health care, and achieving one particular yet isolated result.
By the same token, using a situation that compares workers in a mine - who by definition are often in the mine, working and getting paid to be there, and are adults - to children who might find themselves in a bad situation due to happenstance , well this is actually quite illogical and fails to illustrate the concept you were going for.
In my experience people, at least in the USA, freely volunteer their time to help trapped or lost people, especially children, of their own volition. Usually the local govt organizes or assists... and the locals, including myself are happy to foot the tax bill for these types of services. If a local official does not do his job, it is relatively easy for the community to replace them... as opposed to a Federal Bureaucrat.. who has no accountability to anyone.
As far as your comment on being an "individual" you are mostly correct. The only proper ideal of gov't is that of individuals coming together to organize a system to PROTECT their rights. As opposed to a system that exists as its own justification to determine WHO HAS rights.
I agree that the government should not pay for it. There are myriad organizations (that many of us give money to of our own free will) that are in existence for no reason other than to take care of folks who are unable to take care of themselves.
What the government can do to help people be able to afford medical care is to reform our legal system to curtail the frivolous law suits that drive up the cost of care. Additionally if they would like to provide some sort of tax incentive to provide medication and treatment at lower rates then that too is fine, but the wholesale take over and government running of the medical industry is unacceptable.
It is also worth pointing out that many (if not most) of the revolutionary treatments, that countries with socialized medicine use to save lives, were pioneered by those evil rich doctors and research companies in the U.S.A.
ok let put aside all the law and etcs, I just want to undersand how you guy view this
in a hypothetical case do you agree if a parcel of your popuation cannot pay for a private health care, they should not receive medical treatment, and the government with their power and resources that they get with your hard work from taxes should not intervene to give this parcel of population health care.
Is that correct to your point of view, I mean to you agree that they should no receive medical treatment because they cannot pay for that?
Hey Mithus,
The American form of Government was not created nor designed to do this. No government in the world has ever successfully sustained long term care and responsibility for its people except the monarchies of the arab states that have oil money. However, even Kuwait has started to withhdraw from and rethink other things like free medical care and college for all citizens. In the economies of today, a government can not sustain what it is supposed to sustain while taking care of people who do not need taking care of or who should have provided for their own care. This is the responsibility of the people and not the government. At best, it could be said that some care giving is the responsibility of the state and still not the federal government. Period.
ok I understand yours point of view, and the point that you do not want federal interference.
But I find so intriguing you accept all the military spending of billions of U.S. dollars, when it could be invested in education, internal infrastructure, and a cheap unified federal health care system.
Hint: I think lot of people in here don't approve the military spending. That's why "vote Ron Paul guys".
You a exceptional french guy Arkh, you have time to read about US politics, to play online games and to work as a programmer/developer! Im just a normal brazilian guy that likes online pc games
I've not followed the entire thread because, well..
To point out something regarding Mithus' question it must also be stated that it is illegal for any hospital, in an emergency situation, to deny care that could mean the difference between life and death even if the person has no money and/or insurance.
I've not followed the entire thread because, well..
To point out something regarding Mithus' question it must also be stated that it is illegal for any hospital, in an emergency situation, to deny care that could mean the difference between life and death even if the person has no money and/or insurance.
You have missed out then, the thread has been highly entertaining
As a minor note though Icti - the Federal law only makes hospitals who participate in Medicare obligated not to turn anyone away. It just so happens that almost every hospital does in fact participate in that gov;t program.
Mithus, as to your question about gov't providing for the parcel of people who cannot afford care; my answer is pretty simple.
If gov't is doing the things that gov;t SHOULD be doing, and doing them WELL... then the amount of people unable to care for themselves should easily be covered by private charity. It is when gov't screws up our lives and economy where the number of destitute people would overwhelm the ability of private charity to help care for them.
But I find so intriguing you accept all the military spending of billions of U.S. dollars, when it could be invested in education, internal infrastructure, and a cheap unified federal health care system.
This is an example of something the government is supposed to do. Having said that though a lot of our military spending is pork barrel spending in disguise and could be cut out or at least trimmed down to reasonable levels. I've got several good hammers and none of them cost more than $10 but I've seen reports of our government spending over $100 per...
ok I understand yours point of view, and the point that you do not want federal interference.
But I find so intriguing you accept all the military spending of billions of U.S. dollars, when it could be invested in education, internal infrastructure, and a cheap unified federal health care system.
We could cut military spending by 75% and we still wouldn't make a dent in the cost of free healthcare and college education costs. I agree we do need to upgrade infrastructure, but that can be done in time when we can get our Government in control of their spending. THAT above all is what we need to do FIRST!
Healthcare cost would be more affordable, if the federal government would cut the buraucracy, and by adding tort reform. Which cuts out a lot of the frivilous lawsuits that add cost to healthcare. There's many things we can do that will lower cost, but the left isn't happy with that. It's GOVERNMENT ran healthcare or BUST for them. They don't even want to try other ways to cut cost.
Dont forget that fixing the infrastructure can fall under state territory if it is a state bridge,dam or road. Not all things were paid for by the feds.
And Mithus, the health care reform that we talk about is not FREE. They want everyone to pay. Right now I believe it is around 3k a year, which is more then I pay now for a family plan with my company. Those that cant afford to pay now will be forced to pay or pay a fine.
translated from portugues to english, so things maybe writed wrong:
The number of Americans living below the poverty line has reached the record figure of 46.2 million people in 2010, a time when the U.S. economy trying to emerge from recession, the federal government reported Tuesday.
In a report highlighting the enormous economic challenge faced by the U.S. president, Barack Obama, Congress and the country, the Census Bureau said that the national poverty rate rose for the third consecutive year. The increase was 0.8% points to 15.1% of the population. In 2009, 43.6 million were living in poverty.
The report says the number of poor in the country is the largest since the federal agency began publishing estimates of poverty, 52 years ago. The rate of depletion is the highest since 1993.
The income of U.S. homes fell 2.3%, from U.S. $ 49,445 per year, and the number of Americans without health insurance is around 50 million.
The deteriorating U.S. economy indicators shown in the Census probably worsened in 2011, as economic growth declined, unemployment has remained stagnant over 9% and increased fears of a recession increased.
Well, first of all - the reason we are IN this situation is because of Federal Govt meddling with the markets, money, and cronyism/regulation. Reverse the trend of Govt destroying our middle class and the numbers you cite will be a lot smaller.
Secondly, they may not have "insurance" but they already receive subsidized health care in many cases from Medicaid or State programs.
Govt meddling in health care has encouraged the charities to move on, before the govt meddling was so intrusive there used to be all sorts of church hospitals and doctors, Shriners hospitals, etc. If the Federal govt took less of a role, we would see all those come back.
Mithus let me tell you a personal story of mine. I had emergency surgery about 8 years ago. I didn't have health insurance because I was only working as a temporary employee. I ended up having to stay a week in the hospital. The bill was a little over $10,000 dollars. A lady came into my room asking about my insurance. This was after my surgery. So she suggested medicade, I refused.
So after I got out of the hospital and received the bill I realized I was going to need some help. My aunt works in a doctors offcie and told me that all hospitals have funds specifically given by donations to help people with no insurance. I called and they told me I made more than the normal person with no insurance. They still pro-rated it and knocked off a little over $3,000 from my bill. I made a lot less than I do now, I had to much going on financially. So I paid the bill off in 18 months I realize not everyone has the money to even do that. But things like that fund that knocked some $$ off my bill are there. If I had taken the medicade I may have walked away with paying little to nothiung. It was my choice to not go that route and at least paid as much as I did to pay it off. That's called responsibilty. And that doesn't hurt anyone to have take on responsibilty. A lot of people take advantage of willingness to help them. I think giving people something without having something at stake, causes laziness in a lot of them. I'm not saying that true for everyone, and having the programs that we do have to help people is a good thing. But that's as far as our government should be involved.
You guys argue strongly that the government can not be involved in crucial issues, you if you allow your government care about security, education, why not about health care for those 50 million, I also understand that you do not want be forced to pay anything that you already pay in taxes for the government.
Not everyone has the political awareness and education that you have, or resources that you have. ---------------------- Brazil - Wiki The Brazilian health system is composed of a large, public, government managed system, the SUS (Sistema Único de Saúde) , which serves the majority of the population, and a private sector, managed by health insurance funds and private entrepreneurs.
The public health system, SUS, was established in 1988 by the Brazilian Constitution, and sits on 3 basic principles of universality, comprehensiveness and equity. Universality states that all citizens must have access to health care services, without any form of discrimination, regarding skin color, income, social status, gender or any other variable.
ps. I do not use the public system, I pay for a private medical insurance.
The thing is, I do not like it when people think of things in terms of "rights" when it comes to receiving commercial services.
I also would term it in terms of the "scope of the problem". You talk about security, well if another nation attacks us and we have to goto war... then that is a true national problem. It requires the entire country to get on board with taxes and/or military service to solve that problem.
But something like health care is a "personal problem".
The important difference is which LEVEL of govt should be addressing the problem. Generally speaking, the larger the program/bureaucracy the less responsive it is and the worse it is run. Using the Military as an example that the Federal govt can run something well only works if you were impose military discipline on the rest of the Washington bureaucrats... which when I think about it, actually invokes some pretty appealing mental imagery. I imagine most Washington bureaucrat types would benefit immensely from getting chewed out by a drill sergeant and made to clean latrines with a toothbrush. But anyhow.
The point is the Founders of the USA knew that big government on a federal level was bad. Some things, like the Post and the Military needed to be addressed by the Feds because they addressed issues only a Federal Govt could properly address.
The rest of governance was supposed to be left to the States. So in terms of what is allowed, this is the level of government where things like Education and Health need to happen. Not that I think even a State govt should have a huge program, or try to run the health care system... but implementing those types of programs locally is much more effective, and much more Constitutional.
Part of the problem, is since the Federal govt can print as much money as it wants... it starts to think that the money supply in unlimited. The problem with this is, there is most certainly a limit as to how far this can be taken... the problem is noone knows exactly how far that is. It will work, until it simply doesnt anymore.... and then we will all be screwed.
So this illusion of unlimited money starts getting people thinking in serious terms that govt can and should do any and everything. But doing that, will just screw us all in the end. In addition to objecting having more of our hard earned money taken, many of us worry that liberals who want to "save the world" with other peoples money are going to literally destroy the economy of this country. We will end up like Greece. Then all of us will be poor and without health care...
Anyone trying to get elected will say and do anything to get there. Regardless of their party alignment.
I gave the hell up on our political system long ago. I could give a damn who gets elected now. Politicians are like Pepsi vs Coke. They do their damndest to convince you they are better than the other choice, but they are essentially the same crap that will end up killing you.
Mithus let me tell you a personal story of mine. I had emergency surgery about 8 years ago. I didn't have health insurance because I was only working as a temporary employee. I ended up having to stay a week in the hospital. The bill was a little over $10,000 dollars. A lady came into my room asking about my insurance. This was after my surgery. So she suggested medicade, I refused.
So after I got out of the hospital and received the bill I realized I was going to need some help. My aunt works in a doctors offcie and told me that all hospitals have funds specifically given by donations to help people with no insurance. I called and they told me I made more than the normal person with no insurance. They still pro-rated it and knocked off a little over $3,000 from my bill. I made a lot less than I do now, I had to much going on financially. So I paid the bill off in 18 months I realize not everyone has the money to even do that. But things like that fund that knocked some $$ off my bill are there. If I had taken the medicade I may have walked away with paying little to nothiung. It was my choice to not go that route and at least paid as much as I did to pay it off. That's called responsibilty. And that doesn't hurt anyone to have take on responsibilty. A lot of people take advantage of willingness to help them. I think giving people something without having something at stake, causes laziness in a lot of them. I'm not saying that true for everyone, and having the programs that we do have to help people is a good thing. But that's as far as our government should be involved.
My brother had a seizure in the dentist office and got rushed to emergency in San Jose California. Was in for 3 days and had all kinds of tests. The bill was $79,000. If he didnt have insurance, he would be FUCKED. This is what you guys want to happen to people when they get sick.
LOOK EVERYONE!! ITS WOLFGANG AND PRISMS DREAM COME TRUE (I think that's Wolfgang pushing the wheelchair:
Jet, in all seriousness I know you have analytical skills. You should seriously apply them to figure out WHY the bill was that high. Flowchart it out, at least in your head. Keep emotion out of it, just plot out the myriad cause-effect relationships that result in that situation. Make sure you go back at least four degrees.
Then figure out how the situation described can be fixed.
Once you do that, come see me for your new red armband and tinfoil cap uniform.
Jet, in all seriousness I know you have analytical skills. You should seriously apply them to figure out WHY the bill was that high. Flowchart it out, at least in your head. Keep emotion out of it, just plot out the myriad cause-effect relationships that result in that situation. Make sure you go back at least four degrees.
Then figure out how the situation described can be fixed.
Once you do that, come see me for your new red armband and tinfoil cap uniform.
I wear a tin foil cap everyday and believe in evolution.
Mithus let me tell you a personal story of mine. I had emergency surgery about 8 years ago. I didn't have health insurance because I was only working as a temporary employee. I ended up having to stay a week in the hospital. The bill was a little over $10,000 dollars. A lady came into my room asking about my insurance. This was after my surgery. So she suggested medicade, I refused.
So after I got out of the hospital and received the bill I realized I was going to need some help. My aunt works in a doctors offcie and told me that all hospitals have funds specifically given by donations to help people with no insurance. I called and they told me I made more than the normal person with no insurance. They still pro-rated it and knocked off a little over $3,000 from my bill. I made a lot less than I do now, I had to much going on financially. So I paid the bill off in 18 months I realize not everyone has the money to even do that. But things like that fund that knocked some $$ off my bill are there. If I had taken the medicade I may have walked away with paying little to nothiung. It was my choice to not go that route and at least paid as much as I did to pay it off. That's called responsibilty. And that doesn't hurt anyone to have take on responsibilty. A lot of people take advantage of willingness to help them. I think giving people something without having something at stake, causes laziness in a lot of them. I'm not saying that true for everyone, and having the programs that we do have to help people is a good thing. But that's as far as our government should be involved.
My brother had a seizure in the dentist office and got rushed to emergency in San Jose California. Was in for 3 days and had all kinds of tests. The bill was $79,000. If he didnt have insurance, he would be FUCKED. This is what you guys want to happen to people when they get sick.
LOOK EVERYONE!! ITS WOLFGANG AND PRISMS DREAM COME TRUE (I think that's Wolfgang pushing the wheelchair:
Is that really all you got Jet? I expected more. What would you rather have a system like Europe and be even further in debt? (so far they haven't shown they can sustain all the freebies) There are other ways to cut healthcare cost, will it be free? NO! But it would be cheaper. A smart guy like yourself should know Government buracracy adds costs to anything it's hands are in.
I don't like how fucked up the government spends my taxes as it is, let alone let them dictate my healthcare. Also Jet, if you're so caring and want to help people with no Insurance. Maybe you should give to a charitable fund hospitals have that help people with no Insurance, like the one I recieved help from with my hospital bill when I didn't have Insurance. Also, 3 days and $79,000 for test's goes to show you how much MORE cost is in California. I know there's some exspendive testing, but that's ridiculous.
On the California thing, California has many social programs. And taxes dirt that's on dirt, and I'm sure those taxes aren't cheap. So why is the worlds 5th largest GDP broke? Is it because of FOX NEWS or BUSH? Surely it couldn't be the social prgrams costing to much, because we all know that stuff is free. Maybe Solyndra can help out with some energy... OH WAIT!
Such ridiculous and lopsided socialist mentalities Jet. It gets worse the older you get. It continues to baffle me, it really does. Smartest dumbass I have ever known. (Politically speaking anyway)
Is that really all you got Jet? I expected more. What would you rather have a system like Europe and be even further in debt? (so far they haven't shown they can sustain all the freebies) There are other ways to cut healthcare cost, will it be free? NO! But it would be cheaper. A smart guy like yourself should know Government buracracy adds costs to anything it's hands are in.
I don't like how fucked up the government spends my taxes as it is, let alone let them dictate my healthcare. Also Jet, if you're so caring and want to help people with no Insurance. Maybe you should give to a charitable fund hospitals have that help people with no Insurance, like the one I recieved help from with my hospital bill when I didn't have Insurance. Also, 3 days and $79,000 for test's goes to show you how much MORE cost is in California. I know there's some exspendive testing, but that's ridiculous.
On the California thing, California has many social programs. And taxes dirt that's on dirt, and I'm sure those taxes aren't cheap. So why is the worlds 5th largest GDP broke? Is it because of FOX NEWS or BUSH? Surely it couldn't be the social prgrams costing to much, because we all know that stuff is free. Maybe Solyndra can help out with some energy... OH WAIT!
Well I would argue that the lack of regulation in the financial world allows credit default swaps to tank our entire economy. 8 years of Bush hypocrisy, that PROVED that tax cuts do not stimulate the economy or create job growth. The rich get richer, the middle class is disappearing, and the poor get poorer. Once the economy was destroyed, then the tax base dried up, and everyone suffered even more.
Republicans are the same people that screamed that GM was a lost cause, and should be left to rot, then cant admit it when you are wrong when they recover.
Republicans are the same people that got us into the longest wars in US history, with no plan to get out, and mass corruption behind it all. Imagine our economy if we didn't have those wars.
Republicans are the same people that cheer Rick Perry for 250 plus executions in Texas, but at the same time reject a womans right to choose what happens in her own body, deny two human beings the right to marry and be treated equally under the law, and reject science.
Now lets take 8 years of disastrous policies and blame them on the current administration who was left holding the bag to clean it all up.
That's how I see it, and as I have stated many times, I am a follower and believer in the PBS Frontline series. The truth is all there for you to see if you can open your eyes. I have posted these many times to deaf ears. You can hear it from the players themselves.
Wolfgang although you found a way to pay for your health care, many have no way. When you are born to uneducated parents in the inner city, you don't have those same options, and people like you guys want to sentence these people to hardship and death. This is not the United States as I see it.
I don't have kids, and yet I pay for education. Why? Because the success of the people is the success of the country, and therefore my success.
I can just hope more people see it my way than yours.
Typical blame Bush is back on the table. Kinda late for that.
You are a socialist. Tell me what do you do when you run out of other peoples money???
The tax cuts did stimulate the economy and job growth, its the only thing keeping us from falling further behind. I would be what is considered middle class and my income has gone up and up and up for 10 years. Explain that if the middle class is going away.
The democratic politicians passed a law that forced banks to make loans to people that were unable to pay back the loans, that is what caused the collapse. Take PBS liberal talking heads how you want but look to other sources for once.
As for the wars, I suppose you want us to just turn the other cheek and bend over and wait for the next one. GM should have been left to rot.
As for the juicing the bad guys that's up to what you want to thing but The dems had 2 full years controlling everything and didn't pass gay marriage, so....... and abortion is legal last time I looked. Why do you keep saying they reject or dont believe in science??
As for health care it has been stated many times that you can get care if you have no insurance so show me the streets of dead people that didnt get care. As for the 50 million that dont have it.. take away the illegal immigrants,the people who dont want insurance, the self employed and that number drops to less then half that number.
When the government spends and spends and spends the small companies and large freeze hireing new people cause they know it will bite them in the ass when the government calls for more taxes.
BTW everyone pays for education its not an option.
Is that really all you got Jet? I expected more. What would you rather have a system like Europe and be even further in debt? (so far they haven't shown they can sustain all the freebies) There are other ways to cut healthcare cost, will it be free? NO! But it would be cheaper. A smart guy like yourself should know Government buracracy adds costs to anything it's hands are in.
I don't like how fucked up the government spends my taxes as it is, let alone let them dictate my healthcare. Also Jet, if you're so caring and want to help people with no Insurance. Maybe you should give to a charitable fund hospitals have that help people with no Insurance, like the one I recieved help from with my hospital bill when I didn't have Insurance. Also, 3 days and $79,000 for test's goes to show you how much MORE cost is in California. I know there's some exspendive testing, but that's ridiculous.
On the California thing, California has many social programs. And taxes dirt that's on dirt, and I'm sure those taxes aren't cheap. So why is the worlds 5th largest GDP broke? Is it because of FOX NEWS or BUSH? Surely it couldn't be the social prgrams costing to much, because we all know that stuff is free. Maybe Solyndra can help out with some energy... OH WAIT!
Well I would argue that the lack of regulation in the financial world allows credit default swaps to tank our entire economy. 8 years of Bush hypocrisy, that PROVED that tax cuts do not stimulate the economy or create job growth. The rich get richer, the middle class is disappearing, and the poor get poorer. Once the economy was destroyed, then the tax base dried up, and everyone suffered even more.
Republicans are the same people that screamed that GM was a lost cause, and should be left to rot, then cant admit it when you are wrong when they recover.
Republicans are the same people that got us into the longest wars in US history, with no plan to get out, and mass corruption behind it all. Imagine our economy if we didn't have those wars.
Republicans are the same people that cheer Rick Perry for 250 plus executions in Texas, but at the same time reject a womans right to choose what happens in her own body, deny two human beings the right to marry and be treated equally under the law, and reject science.
Now lets take 8 years of disastrous policies and blame them on the current administration who was left holding the bag to clean it all up.
That's how I see it, and as I have stated many times, I am a follower and believer in the PBS Frontline series. The truth is all there for you to see if you can open your eyes. I have posted these many times to deaf ears. You can hear it from the players themselves.
Wolfgang although you found a way to pay for your health care, many have no way. When you are born to uneducated parents in the inner city, you don't have those same options, and people like you guys want to sentence these people to hardship and death. This is not the United States as I see it.
I don't have kids, and yet I pay for education. Why? Because the success of the people is the success of the country, and therefore my success.
I can just hope more people see it my way than yours.
It wasnt credit default swaps that tanked the economy. Do you not even see the structural factors at play?
The PBS Frontline shows arent bad. But remember, the people who "were there" that they get on the show have one purpose and one purpose only for appearing - to try and cover their own asses and justify themselves. (and try to preempt future criminal charges/lawsuits via court of public opinion )
As for the rest... jeez, label much? I dont think most of us fit those labels at all. I do see a lot of edge issues though, like abortion... totally synthetic issues that do not even matter in the slightest, but are used by manipulators on the right and left to keep the electorate preoccupied and divided over meaningless things like abortion and gay rights while they make off with the loot.
You should try and put yourself in the shoes of someone who tries or does run their own business. Try dealing with a govt that does nothing except fuck with you when some buraeucrat needs to make quota, navigate all the BS, and pay out the ass... then try to make payroll and still have time to get the actual work done.
Theres a damn good reason the govt is near universally loathed by people who aren't either in a cozy corp job with a mega multinational, or rich enough to afford an army of lobbyists and lawyers.
[quote=JetStarWell I would argue that the lack of regulation in the financial world allows credit default swaps to tank our entire economy. 8 years of Bush hypocrisy, that PROVED that tax cuts do not stimulate the economy or create job growth. The rich get richer, the middle class is disappearing, and the poor get poorer. Once the economy was destroyed, then the tax base dried up, and everyone suffered even more. Seriously? Not only woefully inaccurate, but complete fabrication. Those cuts were actually the last thing that stimulated the economy with anything more than abysmal failure, pathetic policy and horrible spending policies that hhave financially gutted this country. Stop blaming the past administration for the repulsive tactics of this pathetic excuse of an administration led by a president whose only ability is to bluster and attempt to inact more spending policies which will not solve the issues.
Republicans are the same people that screamed that GM was a lost cause, and should be left to rot, then cant admit it when you are wrong when they recover. The bailout of GM and AIG, Citigroup and all the rest was an abhorrent abuse of power and the most fiscally pathetic action to date. Completely wrong in its very concept, it only served to really mess things up, as companies which should have failed for a lack of solid management and responsibility, instead are still around creating a sucking chest wound of epic proportions. AIG just loves that they are off the radar. I didnt see your wonderful administration rushing to the aid of the thousands of small companies that went bankrupt when the continued economic woes rendered them incapable of sustaining themselves.
Republicans are the same people that got us into the longest wars in US history, with no plan to get out, and mass corruption behind it all. Imagine our economy if we didn't have those wars. You need to seriously go back to friggin school. With the exception of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflict, you have to go back to the Spanish American war to find one that we (americans) were involved in at the behest of a Republican leader. The rest, WW1, WWII, Korea, Vietnam...blah blah...you guessed it..Democrat leadership. The War machine does not have a political party.
Republicans are the same people that cheer Rick Perry for 250 plus executions in Texas, but at the same time reject a womans right to choose what happens in her own body, deny two human beings the right to marry and be treated equally under the law, and reject science. LOL...on this one, I just have to laugh. You commit a major crime, murder, rape, what have you, you do not deserve to live even in a prison. That is not politics, that is human. I will pull the switch myself and sleep good at night. As was stated, abortion is legal, does not mean everyone has to agree with it. The arguement you use is mute, as it is one sided. Does the man who contributed his seed not deserve a choice in that? Ah yes, grounds for another philosophical arguement. Marriage is a word, and the advancement of the gay/lesbian agenda is no different than any other political bullshit agenda. Fuck them and their "we deserve equality" BS. It will never be enough, just as with so many arguements for fair treatment and equality, which, when enacted have simply been the launching ground for yet one more. And before anyone calls me homophobic, suck my ass. I have a brother and a sister who are homosexual, neither of whom are demanding the rights to marry their partners, even tho my brother and his partner have been together for 25 years. What the fuck does science have to do with it?
Now lets take 8 years of disastrous policies and blame them on the current administration who was left holding the bag to clean it all up. This is a repeated arguement of yours, completely baseless and founded on a lack of specific information that can allow your chosen administration to perform with any degree of credibility. Its bullshit, completely undefendable and lacks imagination.
That's how I see it, and as I have stated many times, I am a follower and believer in the PBS Frontline series. The truth is all there for you to see if you can open your eyes. I have posted these many times to deaf ears. You can hear it from the players themselves. Political biased programming in many cases, out of context comments and a blending of truth do not make these perfect. In many cases it is ass covering "fess" ups and people trying to engender public support so they dont get slapped down.
Wolfgang although you found a way to pay for your health care, many have no way. When you are born to uneducated parents in the inner city, you don't have those same options, and people like you guys want to sentence these people to hardship and death. This is a complete cop-out. It is thhe typical social mindset, that some how this is the root of the problem. PHA. There are countless situations where this has been proven to be a complete falsehood. You need to read Bridges out of Poverty by Ruby Paine, get some perspective on this, and then donate 1/2 of your paycheck to the nearest National Guard Youth Challenge program, you have two in your state, the most successful at-risk youth programs in the country, which thoroughly disproves this fallacy. 89% success rate. This is not the United States as I see it.
I don't have kids, and yet I pay for education. Why? Because the success of the people is the success of the country, and therefore my success. Your first unbiased and intelligent comment in a while.
I can just hope more people see it my way than yours. I hope they do not. I hope that somehow, the vast number of people who cast ballots in the last election based on the color of a mans skin, wake up to the reality that he is a bonifide idiot incapable of leading a country and should never have been elected to do so. His wife would make a far better president than he will ever be. And I hope that the rest recognize that Rick Perry is a fanatical psychopath who also should never have been elected to anything, but certainly not President.
Thanks Vuldie, I was gonna do that and you saved me the time
Abortion - Having been that man, I agree completely with your statement about the man's rights. I would have gladly taken the child off her hands and never looked back, but she thought it would be better for her to kill my unborn child.
Well I would argue that the lack of regulation in the financial world allows credit default swaps to tank our entire economy. 8 years of Bush hypocrisy, that PROVED that tax cuts do not stimulate the economy or create job growth. The rich get richer, the middle class is disappearing, and the poor get poorer. Once the economy was destroyed, then the tax base dried up, and everyone suffered even more.
Speaking of regulation, lets take a look at what kind of regulation is going on in the housing market.
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Never mind that the FDIC in the past gave kudos to Cardinal for its lending practices. Justice is now accusing Cardinal of failing to open branches and achieve racial loan quotas in counties that its federal regulator never before contended should be the focus of its lending. We won't know the full facts of this complaint unless it goes to court. But what Justice is up to sounds like the same government-directed, quota-based lending push that brought us the last housing boom and bust.
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Many companies are simply rolling over and paying once they realize the extent of the possible PR horror show. "Banker" is a bad word in today's political environment. Small and midsize banks depend heavily on their reputation and community ties, and they can't afford to be labelled racist. Many can't afford prolonged legal cases either, and the mere prospect of fighting the feds is intimidating. Mr. Perez knows all this.
So it was all the Unregulated credit default swaps aye?
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Republicans are the same people that screamed that GM was a lost cause, and should be left to rot, then cant admit it when you are wrong when they recover.
We got a DO IT or Else scenerio... FORD was in the same boat, they didn't take any money, they recovered. This is basically a participation award, just because you showed up you get something. Ford didn't show up in their Jet's, or leizured at the Unions posh country club. They survived, GM could have as well. If you keep giving them loans and bailing them out for the umpteenth time, they will never learn from their mistakes because big brother is always there. Big brother is broke...time for plan B.
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Republicans are the same people that got us into the longest wars in US history, with no plan to get out, and mass corruption behind it all. Imagine our economy if we didn't have those wars.
Afghanistan, we did right going in. Iraq, I think it was the wrong time. But we was going to have to go in at some point, those 8 years of Clinton really never doing anything more than lobbing a few missle at Saddam slapping his hand really showed him. And we can't forget the U.N. Oil for food scam. We could have just took a big ol' shit and did nothing, Just chalk it all up as "our bad" take a play from Britains recent shameful demostrations and cower down to those terrorist fuck.( I'll post a video at the end so you can see what I mean). As far as this mass corruption, are you talking about the hundreds of millions of dollars Bush and Cheney recieved? If so, I'd like to see that information. With our economy, Imagine it if we did nothing after 9/11, we would been seen as some whipping dogs. So it would have been an ongoing attacks. I'm pretty sure the economy wouldn't be reacting very well to car bombs or more planes hitting buildings. Hopefully we don't become such pussies, that a scenerio like that EVER happens.
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Republicans are the same people that cheer Rick Perry for 250 plus executions in Texas, but at the same time reject a womans right to choose what happens in her own body, deny two human beings the right to marry and be treated equally under the law, and reject science.
I'm pretty sure comparing executions of CRIMINALS (people that committ heinous crmies) to abortion is dumb. I see a womans right to do with her own body as she see's fit. BUT! I also believe that you never know what life you are extinguishing... what if that child grew up to find a cure for cancer, or some other disease.
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Now lets take 8 years of disastrous policies and blame them on the current administration who was left holding the bag to clean it all up.
Well lets see, I think adding Government ran healthcare isn't a big win on the spending department. That's a HUGE cost, consider the cost of Medicare/medicade as it is now. And you want to add more? Sure lets just keep on taxing, that won't have any kind of ill effect on our economy. Again I ask... if this government ran healthcare is such a grand item... why do people in those systems come to the U.S. for surgery? and why are those governments in high debt? AGAIN... theres other ways to cut cost. Besides, wouldn't it be better to have an economy where more people were working making money to pay for their own insurance that's affordable with those other cost cutting ideas, rather than having them on unemployment at best and having someone else provide their healthcare. JOB wins hands down!
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Wolfgang although you found a way to pay for your health care, many have no way. When you are born to uneducated parents in the inner city, you don't have those same options, and people like you guys want to sentence these people to hardship and death. This is not the United States as I see it.
I understand people have no money. But there are enough safety nets that help those people. It's also worthy to note. People need to take it upon themselves to find work. A lot of these really poor people, are simply lazy and don't want to work. They want someone else to provide for them, I've seen it. I grew up near people that wanted nothing more than someone to provide for them. That SOMEBODY owed them something. This is a part of the reason why I'm against handouts to people, they should have a stake in their part. If this means doing so many hours community service, then I maybe more willing to be more receptive to an idea similar to the HANDOUT. Plus the whole Government taking the money I worked hard for, just to give to someone else thing doesn't sit well.
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I don't have kids, and yet I pay for education. Why? Because the success of the people is the success of the country, and therefore my success.
When it comes to part of my taxes going to public education, I have no problem with. I went to public school and someone was paying taxes while I was there. So I see this as paying that back. However I think someone other than government should be overseeing spending to make sure there's no abuse.
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I can just hope more people see it my way than yours.
Unless I've read you wrong, if more people see it your way than mine. We would be living in pure Socialism!
Here's the video I mentioned above...Make SURE you watch it starting about 2:45 mark.
Here's the video I mentioned above...Make SURE you watch it starting about 2:45 mark.
Personally I am always impressed by people brave enough to stand up for what they believe in with their faces covered...
If I understood that video, the muslims were allowed to call for the violent destruction of the U.S.A. but other British citizens weren't allowed to place some sort of remembrance to lives lost? That's the disgraceful result of political correctness.
Obviously we all believe what we believe, and we can all produce facts to support our statements. Since I am seriously out numbered here, and know for a fact that no matter what I produce it is not going to change any of your minds, nor will any of you be able to change mine.
I guess we wait and see what is going to happen.
I can tell you right now, and please quote me. There is no way that Ron Paul will be elected president under any circumstances. He just doesn't have the support to compete.
Some final thoughts:
1) I am not a socialist by any means. 2) Not sure where the Islam shit came in, but Ron Paul and I agree about the Afgan and Iraq wars. In Afghanistan, we should have kicked ass, and left. Stick and move. Not get in to Nation building. Someone said, "I didn't see Bush and Cheney getting rich". But Halliburton sure did. For anyone to defend the Iraq war at this point is just crazy. Bad intel, bad decisions, and a waste of lives and money. 3) As for GM, I am sure none of you complained when Reagan bailed out Chrysler the first time. I don't hear anyone calling Reagan a socialist. As for the Ford argument, Ford restructured all it's debt just before the great recession and got lucky. Read up on it. 4) As for the housing stuff. Ever tried to get a Mortgage? It is not as easy as everyone thinks. The banks did the lending, noone twisted their arms. I find it amazing that you defend these crooks. 5) I am pro-death penalty, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy from the right. Doesn't the bible say thou shall not kill? I am not religious (I believe in science and not the talking snake), but I love how the right cherry picks what commandments and verses to honor and which ones to ignore. 6) Finally science. How many republicans believe in evolution? How can anyone with a tiny bit of intellect cannot do the math when it comes to climate change? Anything look fishy here? Yes these are from ice cores if you didn't know. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Do the math.
Again, I respectfully disagree on soooo many levels with you right wingers, and I guess we are going to have to see what happens.
Oh by the way, I was a small business owner from 1990 to 1996, so I don't need any lessons from anyone here.
Vuldan, make sure to read my comments above regarding the Death thing. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.
I think you guys forgot about this, "President Bush signs historic $700 billion plan aimed at stemming credit crisis." Its ok when your boy does it, but when they blacky mcblackman does it we are raising the Soviet flag. See http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/03/news/economy/house_friday_bailout/index.htm if you conveniently forgot.
Originally Posted By: Helemoto, Comments in BOLD by JetStar
Typical blame Bush is back on the table. Kinda late for that.
Really, how do you think we got here?
You are a socialist. Tell me what do you do when you run out of other peoples money???
I pay my share, and I am not even close to a socialist.
The tax cuts did stimulate the economy and job growth, its the only thing keeping us from falling further behind. I would be what is considered middle class and my income has gone up and up and up for 10 years. Explain that if the middle class is going away.
Oh really. Complete bullshit: WOW LOOK AT THAT GROWTH!
The democratic politicians passed a law that forced banks to make loans to people that were unable to pay back the loans, that is what caused the collapse. Take PBS liberal talking heads how you want but look to other sources for once.
Frontline is one of the most respected and balanced reporting services we have. They are not easy on Obama or the left at all. Read about it, just dont spew Faux News talking points.
As for the wars, I suppose you want us to just turn the other cheek and bend over and wait for the next one.
Yeah lets just bankrupt the USA destroying weapons of mass destruction that dont exist, then rebuild the nation that hates us after we are done blowing it up. GENIUS!
GM should have been left to rot.
Yeah lets just let another million jobs go down the toilet.
As for the juicing the bad guys that's up to what you want to thing but The dems had 2 full years controlling everything and didn't pass gay marriage, so....... and abortion is legal last time I looked. Why do you keep saying they reject or dont believe in science??
Are you watching the news, have you seen the shit the right is enacting in some states? You can only get an aborton when the planets are aligned once a year. I never said, The dems were perfect. They are chickenshit to piss off the christians. But you dont see any dems openly hating on gays then turning out to be gay like the Republicans.
As for health care it has been stated many times that you can get care if you have no insurance so show me the streets of dead people that didnt get care. As for the 50 million that dont have it.. take away the illegal immigrants,the people who dont want insurance, the self employed and that number drops to less then half that number.
Yeah they leave unpaid bills in the emergency room. Ever wonder why the cost is so high?? Do the math.
When the government spends and spends and spends the small companies and large freeze hireing new people cause they know it will bite them in the ass when the government calls for more taxes.
Yeah that's why they are not hiring! I mean it has nothing to do with the fact that you can hire someone in India or China to do the same work for pennies on the dollar. I mean it has to be that companies are just concerned with government spending.
BTW everyone pays for education its not an option.
Better check your parties real thoughts on this matter.
1. No offense, but you certainly come across like a socialist. Wanting to take my stuff and give it to my less well off neighbor, is generally construed as socialism.
2. I agree with you on this.
3. I would have, had it happened recently.
4. You are flat out wrong here, it may be difficult now... but pre crash it was insanely easy.It was even easier if you were in one of the Fed-targetted groups/demographics for housing assistance. The guy in the office above me a few years ago ran the local office of one of those "mortgage companies". We used to trade favors, and whatnot.. I would fix his PC an cook up spreadsheets for him.. he would help me out with random shit. I got a pretty good inside scoop on how that shit worked, fuck, I saw the paperwork. You could literally walk in off the street and make random shit up, put it on your loan app and nab a house. No, I am not exaggerating.
5. I am anti death penalty, our govt screws it up way too much. Lots of people are put down that did not deserve it. If guilt is certain, then fine - no problem. Its also typically more expensive to execute than just let em rot in prison.
6. I think most GOPers believe in evolution TBH. Anyhow, 20 years ago the general consensus was we were headed into a new Ice Age. Climate science is much too young to take with anything but a grain of salt, and scientists in general are pretty good at missing the forest due to the trees. Large scale chaotic patterns are not something we have nailed yet... if the current consensus is still in place in another 20 years, then it will be worth heeding.
In any case, it doesnt matter. If humans are causing a long term warming trend, we are fucked regardless of what BS regulations we put in place. The rapidly industrializing 5 or so billion people in the world absolutely guarantee that. Unless we are willing to go to war to prevent carbon use by others, we are powerless to effect any meaningful change. Thats some math you can take to the bank.
If that turns out to be the case, then the only hopes we have are simple - new tech to adapt to a warmer planet, or advances in "green" energy that make it more cost effective than carbon based energy. Either we will have it or we wont. Its really that simple. Unless we want to start fighting wars over carbon.
Human global warming is a valid theory, but there are prominent dissenters ( outside of the crackpots the left likes to cite ), and the science is still extremely young as far as analysis of this magnitude go. Pay attention and continue to study? Absolutely. Go off in an alarmist panic? Not advisable.
Besides, cleaner tech should be commercially viable by the time global warming started to make any significant impact.
Here's the video I mentioned above...Make SURE you watch it starting about 2:45 mark.
Personally I am always impressed by people brave enough to stand up for what they believe in with their faces covered...
If I understood that video, the muslims were allowed to call for the violent destruction of the U.S.A. but other British citizens weren't allowed to place some sort of remembrance to lives lost? That's the disgraceful result of political correctness.
I thought it was pretty sickening, to see London police arresting people that were standing up against the extremist's. Yet they weren't the ones with the megaphones screaming death & destruction. Very very shameful, they are so scared to piss off those extremists they are turning on their own.
1) I am not a socialist by any means. I am not certain that I am going to be convinced simply because you stated that here with conviction. :-) You are who you are, but I certainly appreciate the debate.
2) Not sure where the Islam shit came in, but Ron Paul and I agree about the Afgan and Iraq wars. In Afghanistan, we should have kicked ass, and left. Stick and move. Not get in to Nation building. Someone said, "I didn't see Bush and Cheney getting rich". But Halliburton sure did. For anyone to defend the Iraq war at this point is just crazy. Bad intel, bad decisions, and a waste of lives and money.
Not sure where Islam got mixed into all this either, except perhaps the statements about the War. Entering Iraq for the reasons it was done, at the time, even with the bad intel, was coming no matter what. Son finishing daddies mess and all that. It wont change anything at this point. A few years and the place will be another despots playgound.
3) As for GM, I am sure none of you complained when Reagan bailed out Chrysler the first time. I don't hear anyone calling Reagan a socialist. As for the Ford argument, Ford restructured all it's debt just before the great recession and got lucky. Read up on it. I actually complained venemously. I do not believe the government should bail out ANY business. If the business is run bad, tough shit. You of all people know this, as IBM has been up and down that ladder many times. I do not believe they have ever taken government money to stay solvent. And I still WILL NEVER buy a Chrysler product, and that now extends to GM. I have never owned anything Chrysler/Dodge for that reason, and even though I love Chevy, I will not ever buy one again. Just me.
4) As for the housing stuff. Ever tried to get a Mortgage? It is not as easy as everyone thinks. The banks did the lending, noone twisted their arms. I find it amazing that you defend these crooks. I'm gonna have to agree with Derid on this one, before the crisis. Now, it is all but impossible without a downpayment so large it would bankrupt most people.
5) I am pro-death penalty, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy from the right. Doesn't the bible say thou shall not kill? I am not religious (I believe in science and not the talking snake), but I love how the right cherry picks what commandments and verses to honor and which ones to ignore.
Fair enough. I have no religious conviction either, although I do believe in a greater power. You can't ever spend time in a hole in the ground getting shot at and not..LOL. You can lay more war at the feet of religion than any other cause, so we are in agreement there. Dont fall off your chair.
6) Finally science. How many republicans believe in evolution? How can anyone with a tiny bit of intellect cannot do the math when it comes to climate change?
Not sure where this came into the picture, but thhe vast majority of literature and science behind Gore and his global warming has already been debunked. There is a climate shift occuring, man caused perhaps, but more likely the result of the earth itself trying to fix itself for all the shit man does to it.
How about those republican jews voting in Tyler in New York. LOL. Man oh man oh man...district has been democrat since 1920 and now, the people are pissed. Interesting times ahead.
And let me just say, it is a pitty that you are correct, Ron Paul has almost no chance of getting elected. The saving grace there is that your boy..what did you call him..Blackie McBlackman or something..LOL...Obama, I predict right now, while he will be in it, without a huge, and I mean much more than his BS jobs plan, HUGE win on some arena, will not be re-elected either.
You guys talking about socialism this, socialism that.
Your food and gasoline are almost half of price that we pay here in Brazil, but here we do not have the $ income that you guys have, the government heavly subsidizes your agriculture.
So is almost has the government was paying for half of cost of your food, compared with us, so this Health Care about government should not get involved and being a socialist do not compute to me.
Actually its a lot more complex than that Mithus, there are farm subsidies... but often those are subsidies NOT to grow something, strange as that sounds.
Also a lot of subsidies and incentives go for ethanol fuel. In fact the price of food has has gone WAY UP due to gov't intervention, and subsidizing ethanol. Lots of corn goes to ethanol, raising the price of animal feed and corn products.
But I am not against some farm subsidy, because I consider it a militarily needed industry. And I definitely think it should be protected by trade law, foreign food is a major danger to this country.
Anyhow, the govt does not pay for half the cost of our food... not sure where you heard that.
Anyhow, the govt does not pay for half the cost of our food... not sure where you heard that.
it´s food chain --> as one simple example corn is used to feed animals as you said to fuel and also as ingredient or part of many thing that you eat. So as general if you subsidie some of your base, everything will be more cheap, than it should be.
I also has to point, USA is not an Island, you economy is tied to global economy, before the fall of USSR and the rise of China, I think you guys didnt have any competition on the global markets that is responsible also for you superior economy.
Now with the Russia and China on the rails and even India with the services and while preaching free market you guys are facing competition. So losing jobs is a factor.
With all that was not enough, 2 wars to spend more money, and you guys expect that a guy fix all that in 3 years. He will pay the price of the global economy changing direction.
Also the new "Rome" has risen now, after the first WW2 -> to 2000 = EUA, and now China.. to an economy ascpect, becaue in terms of military you still have no match.
Now I understand why Bush was reelect after 4 years
The reason Bush was re-relected was more because of dumbness John Kerry. If the democrats had someone that was votable, Bush may have been in trouble. If Gore didn't have a mental breakdown, he might have had a better chance than Kerry.
Anyhow, the govt does not pay for half the cost of our food... not sure where you heard that.
it´s food chain --> as one simple example corn is used to feed animals as you said to fuel and also as ingredient or part of many thing that you eat. So as general if you subsidie some of your base, everything will be more cheap, than it should be.
I also has to point, USA is not an Island, you economy is tied to global economy, before the fall of USSR and the rise of China, I think you guys didnt have any competition on the global markets that is responsible also for you superior economy.
Now with the Russia and China on the rails and even India with the services and while preaching free market you guys are facing competition. So losing jobs is a factor.
With all that was not enough, 2 wars to spend more money, and you guys expect that a guy fix all that in 3 years. He will pay the price of the global economy changing direction.
Also the new "Rome" has risen now, after the first WW2 -> to 2000 = EUA, and now China.. to an economy ascpect, becaue in terms of military you still have no match.
I think the subsidy argument was truer 15 years ago than today. After Bush pushed through all the ethanol crap, that ate up a lot of the subsidized food. Foreign aid also eats up a lot as well.
I do think Corn is over subsidized, but the 15B or so of random farm subsidies dont really make a blip on the radar.
As far as global competition , it was there - Germany and Japan mostly.. then South Korea. But you are correct to an extent, China certainly has not been good for us. China has cheated the system, and gotten USA politicians to bend over for it. Clinton and Bush both sold us down the river to China.
And Bush beat Kerry because the GOP literally stole the election, here in Ohio. Its extremely sad.. but the voting system is not even functioning anymore, at least in Ohio.
Also I would like to point some thing that repeat through our human history, "the goat scape factor"
our society as general and some politicians try to pick up scape goat over the course of bad times, I already saw coments from KGB members about the problem of imigrants and blamming them for some degree about the economic problem..
as a remind the nazi blamed the jews about the economic problems, after the WW2 the comunist were the scape goats and the fuel to many decision taking..
and now the imigrants and muslims as general are the new scape goats for the problems, USA always had people imigranting ilegaly or legaly to work to jobs were less education and qualification were needed, and that was not a factor, now things are getting worse people need something to blame and justify.
Actually its a lot more complex than that Mithus, there are farm subsidies... but often those are subsidies NOT to grow something, strange as that sounds.
Also a lot of subsidies and incentives go for ethanol fuel. In fact the price of food has has gone WAY UP due to gov't intervention, and subsidizing ethanol. Lots of corn goes to ethanol, raising the price of animal feed and corn products.
But I am not against some farm subsidy, because I consider it a militarily needed industry. And I definitely think it should be protected by trade law, foreign food is a major danger to this country.
Anyhow, the govt does not pay for half the cost of our food... not sure where you heard that.
Also, lot of taxes on imported food. Hence why your coca cola lost its real taste around '84 '85 (the "new coke" fiasco was organized so Coca Cola could replace its cane sugar by corn sugar).
Also I would like to point some thing that repeat through our human history, "the goat scape factor"
our society as general and some politicians try to pick up scape goat over the course of bad times, I already saw coments from KGB members about the problem of imigrants and blamming them for some degree about the economic problem..
as a remind the nazi blamed the jews about the economic problems, after the WW2 the comunist were the scape goats and the fuel to many decision taking..
and now the imigrants and muslims as general are the new scape goats for the problems, USA always had people imigranting ilegaly or legaly to work to jobs were less education and qualification were needed, and that was not a factor, now things are getting worse people need something to blame and justify.
I don't think that anyone is blaming the immigrants for our economic woes and if they are they are poorly informed at best.
Additionally you should notice that the ground swell of anti-illegalalien sentiment comes from the bottom up. The other two examples you listed came from the top down. If we start to see serious demagoguery from a politician directed at illegals in order to reinforce his/her political power then we should absolutely sit up and pay attention. As it stands now the only time it gets mentioned is when the politician thinks that the audience wants to hear it, but no politician is even seriously talking about immigration reform much less rounding people up. (Never forget that we did the same thing here with Germans in WWI and with Japanese in WWII, thank god we didn't kill them, since what we did do was bad enough [for the record both presidents who rounded up American citizens and immigrants were democrats])
Having said that we do need some serious immigration reform. Being fairly intimately involved with that section of our population I can say without equivocation that it is way too hard for people to come here legally who want to work. If we made it easier for hard working people to come and contribute then we also would make it much easier to single out and find those who wish to do us harm.
Obviously we all believe what we believe, and we can all produce facts to support our statements. Since I am seriously out numbered here, and know for a fact that no matter what I produce it is not going to change any of your minds, nor will any of you be able to change mine.
I guess we wait and see what is going to happen.
I can tell you right now, and please quote me. There is no way that Ron Paul will be elected president under any circumstances. He just doesn't have the support to compete.
Some final thoughts:
1) I am not a socialist by any means. 2) Not sure where the Islam shit came in, but Ron Paul and I agree about the Afgan and Iraq wars. In Afghanistan, we should have kicked ass, and left. Stick and move. Not get in to Nation building. Someone said, "I didn't see Bush and Cheney getting rich". But Halliburton sure did. For anyone to defend the Iraq war at this point is just crazy. Bad intel, bad decisions, and a waste of lives and money. 3) As for GM, I am sure none of you complained when Reagan bailed out Chrysler the first time. I don't hear anyone calling Reagan a socialist. As for the Ford argument, Ford restructured all it's debt just before the great recession and got lucky. Read up on it. 4) As for the housing stuff. Ever tried to get a Mortgage? It is not as easy as everyone thinks. The banks did the lending, noone twisted their arms. I find it amazing that you defend these crooks. 5) I am pro-death penalty, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy from the right. Doesn't the bible say thou shall not kill? I am not religious (I believe in science and not the talking snake), but I love how the right cherry picks what commandments and verses to honor and which ones to ignore. 6) Finally science. How many republicans believe in evolution? How can anyone with a tiny bit of intellect cannot do the math when it comes to climate change?
Again, I respectfully disagree on soooo many levels with you right wingers, and I guess we are going to have to see what happens.
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1) I am not a socialist by any means.
Taking money from one class and giving to another IS beating on the socialist drum.
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2) Not sure where the Islam shit came in, but Ron Paul and I agree about the Afgan and Iraq wars. In Afghanistan, we should have kicked ass, and left. Stick and move. Not get in to Nation building. Someone said, "I didn't see Bush and Cheney getting rich". But Halliburton sure did. For anyone to defend the Iraq war at this point is just crazy. Bad intel, bad decisions, and a waste of lives and money.
If the Islam shit you're talking about is the video I posted, then I just want to say how shameful it is (the video). Britain has turned into big batch of snatch. We agree on the part of kicking ass as hard and fast as we can, then get out. This means NO EMBEDDED reporters, you want to lose a war or stall it out. Having reporters tag along is a good way to do that. War is hell... PERIOD!
Haliburton did get those contracts, Haliburton is one of the best at what they do. It looked bad, so does Obama Loaning Brazil money for offshore drilling. The company that's going to be doing the drilling is partially owned by George Soros, and a big contributer to Obama's campaign. I didn't hear you raising to much hell over that!
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3) As for GM, I am sure none of you complained when Reagan bailed out Chrysler the first time. I don't hear anyone calling Reagan a socialist. As for the Ford argument, Ford restructured all it's debt just before the great recession and got lucky. Read up on it.
As I said before, GOVERNMENT shouldn't be bailing out ANYONE! Even if it was done by one of our greatest President's ever (Ronald Reagan) Ford did the right thing, they done what GM should have. When you do nothing except sitting in line waiting on a handout, of course bad things are going to happen if you sit there.
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4) As for the housing stuff. Ever tried to get a Mortgage? It is not as easy as everyone thinks. The banks did the lending, noone twisted their arms. I find it amazing that you defend these crooks.
I bought a house in 2000 when I lived in Missouri. I did it not expecting to be approved, I had only three loans in my life at the time. One was my truck loan and the other was a personal loan a few years before that. I never had any credit cards up to that point either. So I was one of those that didn't have enough credit, at least that's what I thought at the time. I was surprised when I got approved. I went in under a First Time Homebuyer. I put down $1,000 and the Government picked up the rest (yeah i know shame on me). Anyway, it was pretty simple to get the loan, there were no snags and as soon as I found a house I was in it pretty quickly. So the whole "it's not that easy" thing must be only a personal experience. Mine is a personel experience, did everyone get it so easy? it seems so with the housing bust. And yes, they also had their arms twisted... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...Opinion_LEADTop That's the link I posted in my earlier post.
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5) I am pro-death penalty, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy from the right. Doesn't the bible say thou shall not kill? I am not religious (I believe in science and not the talking snake), but I love how the right cherry picks what commandments and verses to honor and which ones to ignore.
Speaking of the ten commandments... THE SOUTHERN TEN COMMANDMENTS is much easier to remember!!! (1)Just ONE GOD.(2)Put nothin' before GOD. (3)Watch yer mouth.... (4)Git yourself to Sunday meetin'. (5)Honor yer Ma & Pa. (6)No killin'. (7)No foolin' around with another feller's gal (or nother gal's feller). (8)Don't take what ain't yorn. (9)No tellin' tales or gossipin'. (10)Don't be hankerin' for yer buddy's stuff. Now that's plain an' simple. And bless your little cotton pickin heart!!
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6) Finally science. How many republicans believe in evolution? How can anyone with a tiny bit of intellect cannot do the math when it comes to climate change?
Oh no, it's Manbearpig. So lets get this out in the open, the earth is how millions of years old? How many of those years were actually recorded with ice core samples,temps...ect.ect? We've also had a few Ice ages... that we know of. Now how can we base 100+ years of records, against something that's millions of years old. Anyway... should we keep trying to do some research & development to be more efficient with less impact on the enviroment? YES... and I'm pretty sure we're doing that. There doesn't need to be an extra government buracracy adding more red tape to know we need to do this. Besides time is running out, we only have until Dec. 21st 11:20 a.m. =P
Obama sux. constantly trying to over tax the american businessman and small business. Were quickly heading into the kracken and we all know how that turns out. I vote turn because i dont really like being fish bait..
And on a side note obama's going to win no matter what because this election was decided by race and will be again. Yes the white americans that voted for him believed his goals and dreams im ok with that but ive yet to meet a black man or woman that voted for him other then because he was black. :-)
Funny stuff Darka, but at this point, as I have said, without a major win that mollifies the people (jobs, economy, some major win that does not deepen the problems) I can honestly say I do not think he has a chance.
That does not mean the replacement will be better, which is frightening considering how pathetically bad Obama is.
Haliburton did get those contracts, Haliburton is one of the best at what they do. It looked bad, so does Obama Loaning Brazil money for offshore drilling. The company that's going to be doing the drilling is partially owned by George Soros, and a big contributer to Obama's campaign. I didn't hear you raising to much hell over that!
1) I am not a socialist by any means. I am not certain that I am going to be convinced simply because you stated that here with conviction. :-) You are who you are, but I certainly appreciate the debate.
2) Not sure where the Islam shit came in, but Ron Paul and I agree about the Afgan and Iraq wars. In Afghanistan, we should have kicked ass, and left. Stick and move. Not get in to Nation building. Someone said, "I didn't see Bush and Cheney getting rich". But Halliburton sure did. For anyone to defend the Iraq war at this point is just crazy. Bad intel, bad decisions, and a waste of lives and money.
Not sure where Islam got mixed into all this either, except perhaps the statements about the War. Entering Iraq for the reasons it was done, at the time, even with the bad intel, was coming no matter what. Son finishing daddies mess and all that. It wont change anything at this point. A few years and the place will be another despots playgound.
3) As for GM, I am sure none of you complained when Reagan bailed out Chrysler the first time. I don't hear anyone calling Reagan a socialist. As for the Ford argument, Ford restructured all it's debt just before the great recession and got lucky. Read up on it. I actually complained venemously. I do not believe the government should bail out ANY business. If the business is run bad, tough shit. You of all people know this, as IBM has been up and down that ladder many times. I do not believe they have ever taken government money to stay solvent. And I still WILL NEVER buy a Chrysler product, and that now extends to GM. I have never owned anything Chrysler/Dodge for that reason, and even though I love Chevy, I will not ever buy one again. Just me.
4) As for the housing stuff. Ever tried to get a Mortgage? It is not as easy as everyone thinks. The banks did the lending, noone twisted their arms. I find it amazing that you defend these crooks. I'm gonna have to agree with Derid on this one, before the crisis. Now, it is all but impossible without a downpayment so large it would bankrupt most people.
5) I am pro-death penalty, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy from the right. Doesn't the bible say thou shall not kill? I am not religious (I believe in science and not the talking snake), but I love how the right cherry picks what commandments and verses to honor and which ones to ignore.
Fair enough. I have no religious conviction either, although I do believe in a greater power. You can't ever spend time in a hole in the ground getting shot at and not..LOL. You can lay more war at the feet of religion than any other cause, so we are in agreement there. Dont fall off your chair.
6) Finally science. How many republicans believe in evolution? How can anyone with a tiny bit of intellect cannot do the math when it comes to climate change?
Not sure where this came into the picture, but thhe vast majority of literature and science behind Gore and his global warming has already been debunked. There is a climate shift occuring, man caused perhaps, but more likely the result of the earth itself trying to fix itself for all the shit man does to it.
How about those republican jews voting in Tyler in New York. LOL. Man oh man oh man...district has been democrat since 1920 and now, the people are pissed. Interesting times ahead.
And let me just say, it is a pitty that you are correct, Ron Paul has almost no chance of getting elected. The saving grace there is that your boy..what did you call him..Blackie McBlackman or something..LOL...Obama, I predict right now, while he will be in it, without a huge, and I mean much more than his BS jobs plan, HUGE win on some arena, will not be re-elected either.
Vuldan, I think we are coming to terms on some of this. At least on the rest we can agree to disagree!
