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Joined: May 2006
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I would not say it is a heated debate concerning KGB ROE's, but they are in question concerning traditional KGB involvement in games these days. As I had pointed out, the old days of KGB defending the weak has long died out it seems, as was pointed out to me it stems from the idea that games these days are not made with the red vs blue mentality, thus the dilemma.

While I agree that the scope of the game has changed and that to survive KGB must also change and adapt or face destruction, I am always a sucker for tradition in a guild, to me it's what gives the guild it's identity and uniqueness which separates it from other more common guilds. Now I am not going to sit here and tell you guys how to run your guild or that my ideas are exactly what you should do, that would be presumptuous of me. Although I will say this, KGB to me is one of the oldest and strongest guilds built on the ideals of empowering their members, protecting those in need, with fair, honorable, and diplomatic play, with the overall intention of creating a free state.

To this end I have been looking over your documents and ranking structures, and what strikes me is that some policies and ranks that might help you in todays games you have over the years rewritten or done away with entirely.

Quote:


Today's KGB Marshals of Justice
The Marshals of Justice have a unique historic background in the Knights of Glory and Beer (See Original Definition). Today, Marshals serve a much different purpose:

Marshals of Justice are appointed by the High King, Prime Minister, or Chief of Staff to execute administrative processes, and perform critical functions to maintain guild resources. Marshal's report directly to the federal executive branch (HK, PM, COS) and do not possess the authority to act on their own. Marshals DO NOT hold rank or authority unless performing a direct order from the High King or executive branch member (HK, PM, COS). Here are their primary duties:

Maintain the Hall of Fame by fulfilling change requests and requested additions.
Review award requests and get approval from Faction Leader and the High King. Then post the award on the Oracle, KGB Sentinel, and HOF.
Assist with recruiting, posting of applications, and orientation of new members with the Faction leaders guidance and approval.
Post regular news stories on the KGB Sentinel.
Assist in the maintenance of the KGB Website.
Serve as an example to all members regarding conduct and duty.

Benefits:

All Marshals will serve on the KGB Senate and help steer the guild and its policies.
Moderator Status on the KGB Oracle.
Automatic full member to all Factions and Leadership Forums.

The following guidelines are for historical reference only. The information below does not apply to the current incarnation of the KGB MOJ's:

Historic Role of the KGB Marshals of Justice (disbanded after UO era)
A ministerial officer, appointed by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King of KGB, to execute the process of the courts, Laws, and Code of the KGB Constitution. These special officers will fall under the command of the Provost General of the Army (G5). As a KGB Marshal of Justice, these individuals have a "license to enforce KGB justice and to terminate potential enemies without question. A Marshal may use his discretion to determine is necessary to deal with complex problems of enforcement beyond the scope of the standard military. Marshals are only required to follow orders from the Provost General of the Army (G5), The Supreme Court, and the High King. KGB Marshals will wear the Guild title of Marshal of Justice at all times.

Conduct of a KGB Marshal
KGB Marshals are expected to adhere the KGB personal conduct at all time. A Marshal has special powers, and with these powers comes an extra responsibility to be an example to the Guild.

KGB Marshal Uniform
KGB Marshals will wear a black robe (The darkest color we can make on SP) with the red apron from the Paladin uniform. This uniform must be worn at all times as the Marshals dress uniform.

Appointment
Will be by the Provost General of the Army (G5) with approval from the High King
KGB marshals may only be appointed by the KGB Guild Master. After this appointment the marshal becomes a Marshal Elect and will be closely monitored until the High King approves the Marshal Elects appointment. KGB Marshals will hold the title of KGB Paladin when not deputized.




The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.

Quote:


Member of Armed Forces Conduct Code

All members of the KGB Armed Forces must obey their assigned commanding officer's orders without question.
All members must SALUTE any member of the Armed Forces (regardless of rank), any members of the Supreme Court, and or any Member of the Executive Branch.
Members have the right to report conduct of their superiors to the CIC without fear on reprisal AFTER a situation occurs. If you do not agree with your commander, you are still required to carry out his orders at that time, but may request a review.
General's will be referred to as GENERAL followed by their name when on active duty. Members that possess a military rank will be referred to as SIR followed by their name.
You will be placed on ACTIVE DUTY during emergencies and when your Commanding officer calls you to action. You may ask to be excused if extenuating circumstances arise.
All members will uphold the highest level of duty and responsibility. Members are dedicating to helping others and to uphold the laws of the KGB Constitution.




As stated before, you have the military performing the policing actions of the state, while this is not a impossibility, it does draw dedicated military force away from critical locations weakening your projection of force in those locations to pursue what might turn out to be low value targets in the end. It also requires your military to always be on stand by, unable to train and equip properly. This creates another logistics issue when you take into consideration that the military is a hammer not a scalpel. I understand that players will play, and that the military doesn't just stand around all day in formation waiting for a call, but if you call on them to perform the mundane and the common often, then it could become an issue to organize and commit to an action as they will most likely not be able to muster fast enough.

Without listing them, General Orders 1 and 3 respectively show that KGB could easily reinstate Marshals to do this job of finding and identifying possible threats to KGB, and in some cases handle the situation fully and/or report their findings and recommend appropriate actions. KGB has become a nation of laws and I find that while order is essential to the well being of a community it can at times create too much red tape as well. In my assessment the Marshals of old could cut through this red tape to better and more effectively serve the guild, they seemed to be more flexible and able to respond quicker to a arising situation then a bulky military presence could.




I would have to agree here

Prism


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Quote:


Quote:

ENGAGEMENT
If an individual is not an ally, assume he/she is a threat. You may engage first--the highest ranking officer present at the scene at the time will make that decision. However, above all act honorably. No griefing, trash talking. Conversations are fine, but represent the honor of the guild well in both deed and in word.




In my humble opinion, what might be best served here is instead of instilling an highly aggressive attitude upon members since that is the general state all players will have already being that it's pvp, remind them more of being cautious, and warning those they come across that they are prepared to fight if given a reason to. Warnings ultimateums and demands can open up dialog which may avoid a problem altogether or learn information otherwise unknown. If ignored then I could understand a threat level increase and eventual hostilities. I'd hate to be attacked by KGB as I walk up to a group just because I am automatically considered a THREAT.







QFT. Being the aggressor right off against unknowns is NOT the KGB way. It will only take a few weeks before KGB should know the alignment of any guild on the server. There is no need to see everyone a threat from the start. This will only make us become very misunderstood as a guild.

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Yeah, simply, I think it would be hard to tell exactly how the guild can work in such an environment, since it'll be a new experience.

But, hey, that's what the beta is for. That'll give a hint as to what you can expect.


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Well, as you can imagine, I want to be prepared and ahead of the game when beta starts, hence the reasons for these discussions.


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Of course.


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Quote:

The marshal's of old is exactly what you need in the games of today, in my opinion what you did to the rank was to turn them into desk jockeys and pencil pushers, when in the past their unique stations within the guild gave them the flexibility to adjust on the fly and granted them the authority to decide whether a situation called for full military action or not, now as it stands the military covers all policing action and must be called out for every infraction against KGB, that is a large force to mobilize and a cumbersome way to enforce KGB authority in an area. Perhaps I am not aware of how KGB actually conducts itself minus the original Marshals, and overall I could be wrong on many points so I do apologize if this is the case.




I have been thinking lots about this also. Perhaps instead of diplomats, I reinstate the KGB Marshall program of old. I am writing something over the holidays, and will post on this.

Thanks for the idea Drak.


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Glad to that for once in my lifetime I was able to contribute in a positive way.

One thing that's been nagging at me is guild participation on the epic level. What I mean is guilds these days seem to be soft on their membership, and what responsibilities those members have to the guild quite often times gets overlooked. If the guild is giving you a place to talk (Vent or TS), providing a website, forums, fellowship/friendships, interesting debates, news gaming or otherwise, awards, respect, titles, and reputation then how are you going to repay that as a member? Remember just because a person might have joined when the guild was in some other crappy game doesn't mean his or her responsibilities to the guild ended there. Quite often times players get too comfortable once they have been accepted, and start going against the grain and doing their own thing. This isn't as much of a problem when times are tough, and there isn't anything worth playing, that's understandable. Although when a game does finally hit will the same people be ready to serve? Would they sacrifice what they are currently into to go off and play a game they know nothing about because the guild needs them? Would you let go of your gaming happiness to join KGB out of responsibility to the guild in a game you may or may not like? This is a fundimental question before every gamer, and each must answer it honestly and be prepared to take a back seat if they cant.

I hear it already, this is not a military, or hey this is supposed to be fun etc etc. But realistically this IS a military in concept, and functionally a guild should work with one mind, one purpose. Factions are all well and good but Jet you know that a significant presence is required of any game let alone AoC. The soft bleeding heart approach to guild organization often times fails and has repercussions on the entire guild and it's reputation.

I realize that game requirements are hard on some, others don't have the time requirements of a new game, and still others might find the game not to their liking. I count myself amoung some of those so before anyone freaks out I totally sympathize with you, but keep in mind its a guild wide effort that counts in any game. Certain games might require more of a tough love approach mandating a royal decree of full participation or a probationary staus change.

It takes an entire guild to be winners, the only thing I learned from shadowbane was either your in full or you might as well pack your bags because dead weight doesn't help your guild in the long run. I was most certainly, at the time, considered dead weight but I could see my mates winning because I wasn't draining any resources outside of the game by conducting distracting personal agendas.

I guess plainly put overwhelming numbers, massive support and logistics, good intel, a powerful army, awesome organization, and highly specialized individuals is what will be needed to succeed. This will require the bulk of the guild with a highly motivated, dedicated, and responsible attitude. Are all your guild members ready to enter a game together as one nation for one purpose or are you going to keep kicking around UO and Vanguard? I could definately see waiting to see how well any of the next gen games that come out handle before making any guild wide changes or general orders. There is pleanty of time without a doubt.

I know it was preachy, sorry guys, I also know its a tad mean.

Last edited by Drakiis; 12/28/07 12:45 AM.

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Things are coming along ok so far. I have 33 of us already signed on, and I expect to open with between 50 and 100.

As more and more members check back, I think more interest will be shown.

I agree with your post, although its hard from me to understand from the top. I just do what I do, and hope that everyone will do the same. So far for the last 10 years, this has worked out pretty well.


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Revol alot has changed since you've disappeared. I would suggest catching up on the Constitution as that has changed and there are alot of things that are different. Mmo life is not so cut and dry as it was in the past


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I really like the idea of bringing back the Marshall system - It worked well in the past if memory serves. I think sometimes our ranks seem to be a little officer heavy and that leads to "high ranking" individuals acting poorly at times. With the advent of a new age in our gaming history, it may be time to look at clearing the board so to speak at least in regards to this game and making sure our middle managers really represent KGB and totally agree with and are committed to following orders from above.

I have also seen no talk about crafting or setting up a seperate chain of command to deal with supply and demand issues. Just wondering what people had in mind as far as that goes.

I am VERY encouraged by all the discussion so far!

=0)


Hakaryu Lionheart
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