The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Here it comes again, getting more serious daily

Bush supporting arbitrary denial of 2nd amendment rights

Scary shit. Not just fly, or travel, or have a bank account, now moving onto other things....

I remember a day, when you werent a criminal until you had been tried and found guilty. I'm guessing my generation may be the last to remember it for a very, very long time.

oh, you mean the states and the notorious witch hunts you go on through history... get use to it IT HAPPENS AGAIN AND AGAIN EVEN IN YOUR GENERATION

guess I should also say that there have been alot of stupid laws passed but really nothing that keeps you from doing what you really want to do, and thats get drunk and have sex all the time so who cares... now if they try to take my alcohol and sex away I will be the first person up on a bell tower

LOL

To the streets with our pitch forks and axe handles!

Wait... is it really that bad?

Imagine what it must of felt like when Lincoln enacted the first draft... Talk about overpowered government taking away rights...

Desperate times call for desperate measures...

As far as I can tell, if you have no contact with known terrorists or make regular long distant calls to Pakistan you should be ok... We've got to do something or we'll sell them the rope to hang us with...

Had this not come up I could see a terrorist killing 50 people in a mall and all of the talking heads on the 24 hour news cycle would be blamming Bush for allowing "suspected" terrorists to buy guns... Couldn't you just see that headline?

"Had this not come up I could see a terrorist killing 50 people in a mall and all of the talking heads on the 24 hour news cycle would be blamming Bush for allowing "suspected" terrorists to buy guns... Couldn't you just see that headline? "

And?

So what.

The point is, it used to be that for the most part, for your rights to be restricted you had to be actually accused, charged and convicted of something. Or at least formally charged.

Now, your name just gets put on a list you cant get it off of easily, if at all. You really think Islamo terrorists are gonna buy their guns at a gun shop anyhow? Im gonna make a CRAZY assumption that international terrorist organizations can probably get weapons even if Dick's Sporting goods wont sell it to them.

The problem here is lack of due process. Lack fo due process is bad. Lack of due process ALWAYS leads to abuse.

Comparing Lincoln to Bush, is also just....... yeah. Seriously. C'mon. Comparing the situation of today with that period of time and situation also just...... yeah.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Learning from history != comparing Emancipation Proclamation to allowing the Govt to blacklist people w/o trial or likely, viable recourse.

Actualy if you think about comparing Bush to Lincoln, there are alot of similarities.

At the time he only had an 18% approval rating. Now we look back and hail him as one of our greatest presidents.

As for rights not being restricted untill you're charged... I dunno if you've spent any time on the receving end of the police or any other local law enforcment agency, but none of them give a rats ass about your rights. And it's not just recently that this has come about either. If you actualy can find them, there are articles and news reports dating back sometimes more then 50 years where you hear of students assembling at thier college peacefully only to be shot and killed by state police, and the police who killed these students weren't ever prosecuted for the deaths.

Unless they start trying to take guns away from citizens, I'm not too worried about what the govenment is doing to a select few of possible troublemakers.

(by the way, I've not only been put on a watch list, I've got two computers of mine being held by the FBI in a forensics lab.... And honestly, if I hadn't been a dumbass, I would't have gotten myself into all the trouble I did.)

I know the incidents your referring to,Kent State and I have never indicated that there have never been problems. One big difference, is there was quite an outrage back then over the happenings. Today people are mostly silent.

COINTELPRO Led to the Church Committe and helped spur the formation of new laws like the FISA act to limit govt intelligence gathering on US citizens, which has now been trampled over.

There is surely a large degree of truth in your statement about police as well, which makes me wonder why so many people want to give the police more power. It has been bad at times, but I argue in a more closed society with a stronger govt influence on the ordinary citizen, it would have been far far worse.

Instead of thinking that "well there have always been problems, so whatever" we should be thinking "if these problems existed before, imagine how terrible things are going to get if these post-9/11 trends continue".

So, thanks for unintentionally helping me make my point.

Making a relation between bush and Lincoln based on them both at one time having poor approval ratings is also..... not much of a similarity. Ok, they both have been unpopular at times... and? Some people dont care for either apples, or oranges. Just works out that way sometimes.

I guess I didn't quite make my points clear, lack of sleep plays hell on my communication skills....

I agree that there is lack of due process, however I do not think that this is suddenly a new thing we're sprining into. I beleive there has always been and always will be a lack of deu process. Governments will only do what is best for the government.

You're also right, about some terrorist org isn't going to get their guns from a dicks store. Criminals will always find a way to get/have guns no matter how many checks and regulations the state and federal governments put on firearms.

And my relation to Bush and Lincoln is based on more then just a poor aproval rating. Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation is probaly a large part to what gave him the poor aproval rating. It also lead to the succession of large areas of the country and one of the bloodiest and highest loss of life wars the US has fought. In the end, it was all good though.
I look at it more along the lines as these recent Gov. blackballings as part of a way the government is going to do what's best for itself. Do I like it? No.

Quote:

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julio:
As far as I can tell, if you have no contact with known terrorists or make regular long distant calls to Pakistan you should be ok... We've got to do something or we'll sell them the rope to hang us with...

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But I strongly agree with this statement. You have to look at 9/11. These groups are not afraid to take drastic measures or kill innocent people, just to try and prove a point or be heard. But they're a nameless and faceless group, which is what makes it so tricky as how a government is going to protect it's greatest resource, 'the population'.

And I'm sorry about being long winded....

" But I strongly agree with this statement. You have to look at 9/11. These groups are not afraid to take drastic measures or kill innocent people, just to try and prove a point or be heard. But they're a nameless and faceless group, which is what makes it so tricky as how a government is going to protect it's greatest resource, 'the population'."

The problem is, "mission creep" always always always happens. Today its islamicists, tommorow.... ? ? ? Theres always new uses for an existing legal tool. A govt, any govt will always find them.

I would say that the Govt should be the populations resource, not vice versa. In a facsist establishment, the populace is the Govts resource. In a Free Republic, the Govt
is the populaces resource.

The fact that the former way of thinking is becoming more prevalent, often without people even being cognizant of it, is what I am speaking out against. Remember, all fascism doesnt look like WW2 Germany. Just because brownshirts wont necesarrily be hauling awerage people off to detention camps tommorow doesnt mean that what we are experiencing as a society is healthy.