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#145411 - 06/11/18 10:40 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
I believe Harris is popular because [This is causal claim] he is a liberal willing to lend legitimacy to the foundations [This would be isolationism and racism] of alt-right ideology. He is being paid to do exactly that. [Implication - tainted motivations, he wouldn't do it unless paid] As a result [Another causal claim], he is fueling the alt-right by justifying some people's preexisting biases with dubious "rational" reasons [Claims are either rational or not, there isn't a third kind.], leading [Another causal claim] them to seek out even more polarizing justifications (see the SPLC article linked above).


Lets analyze this gem. [Comments Inserted] in the quote above. Additionally, here they are in line:

"I believe Harris is popular because he is a liberal willing to lend legitimacy to the foundations of alt-right ideology. He is being paid to do exactly that."

Restate for clarity:

Harris popular only as a result of his liberal credentials being used to justify racism. He does it for money.

---

"As a result, he is fueling the alt-right by justifying some people's preexisting biases with dubious "rational" reasons, leading them to seek out even more polarizing justifications..."

Restated for clarity:

Harris is at least partially responsible for alt-right by providing them with false reasons, causing further radicalization.


Pick any one of the highlighted points and justify your positions. For now they are just dubious accusations.

---

Here is alternative explanation, that is simpler.

Harris is an atheist, he opposes any religion, including Islam on this basis. He criticizes Islam rationally, and has an audience of atheists that listen to what he has to say. Your opposition to Harris is rooted not in his positions, that are justified and reasoned, but because it contradicts your narrative of unquestioning inclusivity above anything else. That is, ultimately you value inclusivity and diversity over free speech and personal liberty.




#145419 - 06/13/18 09:09 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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For clarity and perspective, lets imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a minute.

Calling Sam Harris an alt-right figure, or cynical panderer to such is the equivalent of calling Thomas Piketty a SJW Marxist or panderer to such because his body of work regarding systemic inequality can be shoehorned to fit into Marx's interpretation of Hegel's dialectic, and also tends to validate the assertion that a person's starting position in life heavily influences their likely ending position. He also asserts that 'elites' have captured political process across all major parties, making him somewhat popular with some radical leftists. (just YouTube marx piketty if you want examples of this)

However, trying to label him a SJW or Marxist is absurd, as he is neither of those things. Anyone who tried to dismiss his positions not by addressing his logic or facts, but by trying to poison the well and associate him with people who cherry-pick portions of his work to support their Marxist positions, would also be acting in an absurd manner.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
#145420 - 06/15/18 01:13 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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The Rubin Report - recent talk with Harris. I think Harris does a very good job addressing issues that we discussed in this thread.



I also agree with Harris on social media, I don't personally participate in it because it warps your thinking. I think there is a good chance rhaikh got his intellectual herpes that became evident in this thread by over-using social media.


#145421 - 06/15/18 01:40 AM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
And herein is the intersection with the central point of this topic: Weinstein appearing on Fox is him following the same formula.


Lets talk about Weinstein. I assume everyone here is familiar with what happened at Evergreen College and how speaking against black bigots got Weinstein in trouble. If not, it is fascinating case of run-away identity politics that is worth looking into.

This is another data point of rot that spread over the left. We have seen similar process play out on the right with the tea party and RINO phenomenon, where people questioning dogma were purged as faux conservative. This lead to the sorry state of GOP today and devolution into Trumpism. The same process is playing out on the left right now. Only the left is much nastier about this, not only these people (e.g. Harris, Weinstein) were cast out, but also viciously slandered on the way out. It may end up leading to left's version of Trumpism.

Last edited by Sini; 06/15/18 02:28 AM.

#145427 - 06/19/18 04:57 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Derid]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
Pick any one of the highlighted points and justify your positions. For now they are just dubious accusations.


Congratulations on actually reading what I wrote for once. I think this is big step for you.

I grant that my claims are unfounded in this forum, but I reserve that they are based on rational analysis. Please do your own research as I'm done contributing to your bad faith discussion.

Originally Posted by Derid
For clarity and perspective, lets imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a minute.

Calling Sam Harris an alt-right figure, or cynical panderer to such is the equivalent of calling Thomas Piketty a SJW Marxist or panderer to such because his body of work regarding systemic inequality can be shoehorned to fit into Marx's interpretation of Hegel's dialectic, and also tends to validate the assertion that a person's starting position in life heavily influences their likely ending position. He also asserts that 'elites' have captured political process across all major parties, making him somewhat popular with some radical leftists. (just YouTube marx piketty if you want examples of this)

However, trying to label him a SJW or Marxist is absurd, as he is neither of those things. Anyone who tried to dismiss his positions not by addressing his logic or facts, but by trying to poison the well and associate him with people who cherry-pick portions of his work to support their Marxist positions, would also be acting in an absurd manner.


The difference is that Harris did not do original research with Murray, he is simply giving him platform and choosing to ignore valid rational arguments against the work itself to promote his agenda.


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#145430 - 06/19/18 09:42 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: Sini]  
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Originally Posted by Sini
Personally, I have been "eaten" many times at this point, where I am actively looking at saner (e.g. libertarians) groups of people to align on specific priorities or values (e.g. freedom of speech)


Politico on Classical Liberal . I find my values align with many thinkers on "Intellectual Dark Web". However, this label is stupid, we are simply oppose authoritarians of all kinds. (Trump or ANTIFA)


#145431 - 06/19/18 09:49 PM Re: Is the left eating itself? [Re: rhaikh]  
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
I grant that my claims are unfounded in this forum, but I reserve that they are based on rational analysis. Please do your own research. Please do your own research...


You are attempting to shift Burden of Proof .

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Please do your own research as I'm done contributing to your bad faith discussion.


Disagreeing with you does not make my arguments bad faith. Let me ask you, what kind of evidence would you accept to change your mind on Harris? For example, would $3.4mil settlement and unconditional appology from SPLC count?


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