The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (SPECIAL ACCESS) KGB Political Debate Central The real Truth - 10 minutes short video

Quote: "So the government intervention on the consume of tobacoo is a violence? Are you kidding uh "

What else would it be other than violence? Govt IS violence. You seem to be lacking some basic understandings if you do not recognize Govt for what it is.

Also, I think Oprah getting sued for talking about the meat industry is as bad as what you are proposing. Stop using false dichotomies, its not an either:or situation. You are trying to say that its "either: we stop eating meat altogether" "or: you support every practice of the current status quo" - which is one big reason why I find your arguments so ineffective.

Quote: "I will not argue with you about any moral issue, you as clearly has show you do not have any problems eating pig products, even knowing that pigs are not different from dogs that USA love so much, aside the ammount of meat that they can produce."

I am fine with people eating dog as well. People in some parts of the world love dog, and cat as well. Nothing wrong with that. I get the feeling that you do not understand the concepts my argument is based on, which is why you do not want to go there. Your mentors in this debate are so used to aiming at straw men (DesCartes) that they have given no positions for you to easily parrot when it comes to my argument.

Quote:"Please link me any scientific articles about people that cannot synthesize (protein -> amino acids) from plants that cannot be replaced by other plants.. "

This is you missing the point as seems per the usual when it comes to this subject. The point is that there is wide varience on how different humans metabolize, which is indisputable. Research on how various people and groups of people react to and metabolize and synthesize specific amino chains is nascent and conclusive data nonexistent. It will probably be another 30 years before this data becomes available.

In the meantime, I will stick to a diet that does not make me feel like shit. (aka vegan diet)

If vegans start living past 100, and retaining their mental faculties while doing so - it will be the wave of the future without having the govt stick a gun in everyones face. I am not anticipating that happening in the slightest, but it is what it is and time will tell. I do think people will start eating *less* meat, and insisting on higher quality meat however.

I know too many people who lived well past 90 in good health eating large quantities of pork daily to expect that meat itself is the culprit. However in most of these cases, the bulk of meat eaten was grown on small farms without extra hormones/chemical/additives or preservation chemicals.


Quote: " Again lets debunk this by parts

First it's a connected matter, you will never get me to simplify it to you because it's global problem, it's not only about one matter, that is what you are failing to see.
And when said in the previous topic about that you didnt care about inefficiecy, as the same as you do not care about your Country."

First, there are no "global problems" , there are only problems that occur in many places on the globe.

I absolutely see that it is not about one matter, the problem is your basing your linked logic on too many false premises and use too many false dichotomies as examples.

Also, of course I am selfish - as everyone should be. I do not exist for the benefit of my country, the country exists for my benefit - and the same goes for everyone. People who get that backwards are inevitably doomed to tyranny. Bad things happen when Govt becomes the master, and not the servant.

You do not make a good case for eating no meat in your last point, though you do make a good case against socialized medicine and big govt. As you say though, if certain types of diet are superior then ultimately the market will sort it out. Not sure why you even bother to evangelicize.

And yes, I am terrified by the level of insanity shown by many of my countrymen thank you very much. Its not about fear of change, its about fear of change for the worse.

About government regulation tobacco industry, I will not comment or anwer on this matter because would be an topic alone by itself. But I do not agree with you at all about what is government for.


My case is against meat and not about an specific issue caused by meat(health/enviroment/economy/moral), I will use all arguments that are relevant to the case, we there is no false dichotomym and again one of the reasons why IGF-1 one of the most cancer promotorers know to date did pass on regulation to be used is because the government did not act(different from Canada and Other Europe countries), so you are really falling to see.


So in sum in cannot me link any real link.


Again sir, you are missing the point, I think you think vegan is like some magic potion, and continue parroting as you say about government gun and things like etcs.. People will continue to live at 70/80/80/100 it doesnt matter, but what's matter is the population % that will be free from cancer and heart disease and severe osteoporis, and live the last of years of their lives very well, those ones that Dr. Esstlyn succefull cured more the 80% of his pacient switching to a plant based diet, because what we know NOW is how animal protein can promote cancer, and how limiting animal protein to a maximum 10% of daily calories consunmptiom can stop(turn off) or slow the development of cancer that is already ongoing and it's not in metastasis phase. And this is not a guessing, this is a scientific study done by Cornell Universty.


You are wrong, there are global problems, we live on the same atsmophere, so what we are putting out to the atmosphere, will impact on global economy, I think you are theat ones that believe that there is no greenhouse gas emission problems, and all invented by the actvists.


Again you put the government as everything or nothing, if it was not the goverment involved we would still had people dying at factories from exposition to asbestos, and people dying from lung cancer by millions because sometime ago even doctors were smoking, 40-50 years ago the consume of tobacco was alarming.


I agree in the years the will come, if there are any funding to further get more clear of the detrimental rule of animal protein in the diet things will clear out even more, but in the meanwhile the best thing that can happen is the goverment regulate all the critical issues that I already spoke before.. And unlike you, other people like to educated about the possiblity of meat causing cancer, unlike you they are concerned about the health of their country.


IF and when the majority of the population switch to a more plant based died, you do not need to fear that.. as Bill Clinton is not fearing anything, he changed to a plant diet because eating the way were for certain that he would missing seeing their grandchild grow. That was their worse fear.

Again you are missing the point that is acknoledge by most all doctors..
MAJOR MACRONUTRIENTS of MEAT - PROTEIN and FAT..
Even the most leancuts of meat are enough to clog up the artheries after decades of consumption... you can delay this by being very active and exercicing.. but that is not that case of major part of population.. as example Bill Clinton is very active on the exercice part but that is not enough when people get old.. and now all their medical tests show how his colesterol and how his overall health is better, and how hes healing himself with no meat consumption.

get attention to this 3 minutes teaser, this could save many lifes that you do not care.

So, if I understand correctly Mithus's argument is that meat, by in large, is bad because we've not evolved the proper digestive tools for taking care of meat that we ingest. Everything else springs from this, right? The animalist stuff is just the emotional track to getting people on this bandwagon.

If this is about evolution, and its been proven that animals evolve a taste for things that are good for them (we typically call this a craving, which is our body telling us we need something) and a repulsion to things that are bad for them, how come meat tastes so yummy?

Quote: "About government regulation tobacco industry, I will not comment or anwer on this matter because would be an topic alone by itself. But I do not agree with you at all about what is government for. "

Mithus, this is not about agree or disagree. This is an absolute.

When you do not follow the govt orders:

1. Armed men come and kill you/throw you in a cage
2. Nothing happens. In which case feel free to regulate against meat all you want, because I will ignore it.

You and I both know that 1. is what happens when you defy govt. You can NOT say that govt is not violence, and expect to be taken seriously. Govt is govt, taxes are called taxes and not donations, regulations are called regulations and not suggestions because the end result of not complying are penalties that are backed by MEN WITH GUNS WHO KILL OR CAGE YOU.

There is no agree/disagree on this.


Quote: "My case is against meat and not about an specific issue caused by meat(health/enviroment/economy/moral), I will use all arguments that are relevant to the case"

And apparently many arguments that are not relevant.

Quote: "Again sir, you are missing the point, I think you think vegan is like some magic potion, and continue parroting as you say about government gun and things like etcs.. People will continue to live at 70/80/80/100 it doesnt matter, but what's matter is the population % that will be free from cancer and heart disease and severe osteoporis, and live the last of years of their lives very well, those ones that Dr. Esstlyn succefull cured more the 80% of his pacient switching to a plant based diet, because what we know NOW is how animal protein can promote cancer, and how limiting animal protein to a maximum 10% of daily calories consunmptiom can stop(turn off) or slow the development of cancer that is already ongoing and it's not in metastasis phase. And this is not a guessing, this is a scientific study done by Cornell Universty"

This is just a question mark to me, you are saying 10% meat is OK? I thought you wanted no meat? I already said that eliminating excess meat from a diet can be helpful in some cases, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I think you are missing some things.

For one thing, you are arguing for no meat whether it is produced by a factory farm or not. Second, you are trying to tell others how to live using violence(govt) to enforce your opinion. I did not miss the point at all, my point is that if your way is better then people will naturally gravitate towards it. If something is truly superior, you do not need govt. That and forcing people to conform to your idea of what is best for *them* is evil. Worry about yourself, live your own life - its not your place to use violence (govt) to force other people to do things "for their own good".

Quote: "You are wrong, there are global problems, we live on the same atsmophere, so what we are putting out to the atmosphere, will impact on global economy, I think you are theat ones that believe that there is no greenhouse gas emission problems, and all invented by the actvists."

I will say that the whole global warming charade has made me much more skeptical of activist scientists, and cautious about accepting data from studies without reading the raws myself and putting it into context. When I was younger it was "global cooling" and the "coming ice age".

Our climate is whats known as an "emergent system" and not subject to simple one-liner explanations of its behaviour. Its far too complex, I suspect in about 30 years we will have a better idea of how the climate really works and what causes it to warm or cool. All of our science cannot yet even tell us with great accuracy if it will rain tomorrow, there is no working climate model. Anyone who says they know how it works, is just blowing smoke.

Quote: "I agree in the years the will come, if there are any funding to further get more clear of the detrimental rule of animal protein in the diet things will clear out even more, but in the meanwhile the best thing that can happen is the goverment regulate all the critical issues that I already spoke before.. And unlike you, other people like to educated about the possiblity of meat causing cancer, unlike you they are concerned about the health of their country. "

I am quite educated about the "possibility" of meat being detrimental in some cases, and at some doses. Also, it seems patently obvious to me that contaminents have something to do with detrimental effects. But the absolutely worst thing to happen, is to get the govt involved in enforcing your idea of a healthy lifestyle on people. Humans have the natural right to live as they see fit as long as they do not harm other people. Also, science changes its mind so incredibly often about these types of things as new data comes in... the case is farrr from closed on the effects of meat, especially when you take a more granular look and factor in things like types of meat, type of meat preperation, how the meat was raised and fed, what is eaten with the meat, other environmental factors and etc. There is soo much more at play than just "meat or no meat".


Quote: "Even the most leancuts of meat are enough to clog up the artheries after decades of consumption.."

My grandpappy lived to 100, and was in near perfect health until 98... and ate pork every day of his life. Just one example close to me personally. Good for Bill Clinton if his current regime helps... but different people are different.

Quote: "So in sum in cannot me link any real link."

Seriously? Seriously serious? I have to spell everything out for you?

Ok some quick true/false

1. Plenty of data has shown and there is ample examples of different people and population groups that metabolize foods differently. ( hint google Darwinian medicine if you really want to read links, I shouldnt be having to link everything for you - according to you , you have already read all the pertinent literature on the subject )

2. There is however, no body of data that identifies metabolization and synthesis efficienty regarding different amino acids correlating to different genetic markers. ( if you find one let me know )

(hint: the answer to both of these is true)

Ergo, you making a claim that it is proven that all people can live equally well without animal protein is you talking out of your bunghole.

If you can explain why some people do not do well under a Vegan diet ( including myself ) I am all ears.

You are guessing wrong, my argument against meat is for health/enviromental-economy/moral issues, there are other people that have just one single argument.
Autopsies done in real carnivores in various animal that live in zoos around the world and that are extremely sedentary, do not show a simple case of clogged veins or cancer worldwide. Their food do not stay enough in their intestines unlike us.
Cardiologist William C. Roberts hails from the famed cattle state of Texas, but he says this without hesitation: Humans aren't physiologically designed to eat meat. "I think the evidence is pretty clear. If you look at various characteristics of carnivores versus herbivores, it doesn't take a genius to see where humans line up," says Roberts, editor in chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and medical director of the Baylor Heart and Vascular Institute at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas. © Stephen Kroninger
  As further evidence, Roberts cites the carnivore's short intestinal tract, which reaches about three times its body length. An herbivore's intestines are 12 times its body length, and humans are closer to herbivores, he says. Roberts rattles off other similarities between human beings and herbivores. Both get vitamin C from their diets (carnivores make it internally). Both sip water, not lap it up with their tongues. Both cool their bodies by perspiring (carnivores pant).


The majority of population do not like meat without salt, I do not see any taste in poultry and we have to put oil and salt to be tasteful. Can you eat crude meat without salt without feeling disgusting, I do not think so. Man begun to use fire not to long ago if we count that our digestive system still the same as 100.000 thousand years ago, like Dr. Roberts said it doesn't take a genius to see where humans line up. What is food that taste good naturally for us sweet fruits and fatty veggies like avocado, without need to put salt or toast them. What is the 99% diet of our close related species(apes).. fruits and vegetables.


My example to counter your argument. I do not see the government restricting the advertising of something bad to health and heavily taxing tobacco as something bad. So I think the government is need for that.


I do not need to explain to you because I think you already know, but in case that you do not know and for others, I'm going to explain what I learned with Dr. Campbell and The China Study.

As my example people can smoke during all life and do not get cancer. That's mean tobacco is good? Not at all.

I do not know his history, first your grand-pappy should be someone very active when he was young.

First factor - As you already said, exercising has a great rule to prevent diseases.

Second factor – you have to have the genes, that make you susceptible to a certain disease.

Third factor – to the case of cancers you need to be exposed to carcinogenic elements that you cause genetic damage to cells, something like pollution, chemical additives, and etc.

Fourth factor – Even if do not exercise, even if you have the genes, even if you are exposed to carcinogenic elements, the damaged cell can not proliferate and stay dormant. What is need to those cell get out of control? Animal Protein.. protein is a powerful element to make cell growth and multiply. So when you eat any food that has too much protein, you risk yourself to develop a cancer as you age.

Three possibilities to your grand-pappy, he has exercise vigorously when he was young or worked hard physically and his immunity system is really good, or he do not have the genes, or he didn't get exposed to any carcinogenic. So he could not develop any cancer.

So that's not means how people should be not cautious eating animal protein, as Dr. Campbell said, if they apply the same protocols that is required to an element be considered carcinogenic, that would put milk as the most carcinogenic product ever consumed, because milk has the same qualities of meat, same protein content, same fat content. It's just liquid meat.



I cannot explain that, I would ever doubt even if a psychiatrist could explain that because would be a case that you going to a mind doctor, and as we know nobody is allergic to all plants, and we can replace one over a hundred of veggies options.. Also people are so addicted to salt in their food that if they ever eat anything without salt after 30 year eating a standard American diet you could not expect to feel good just eating for a day or even a month different.. I can say by my own experience. that I didn't feel good taking out meat and dairy for around 3 months.. but I adapted very well, and I feel very good, it's just a matter of we wanting to change.

Quote: "My example to counter your argument. I do not see the government restricting the advertising of something bad to health and heavily taxing tobacco as something bad. So I think the government is need for that. "

That is not a counter, that is you saying that you believe that having armed men force tobacco companies to use warning labels is justified. Whether violence is justified or not is a completely different argument than whether or not violence is the tool being used.

quote: " First factor - As you already said, exercising has a great rule to prevent diseases.

Second factor – you have to have the genes, that make you susceptible to a certain disease.

Third factor – to the case of cancers you need to be exposed to carcinogenic elements that you cause genetic damage to cells, something like pollution, chemical additives, and etc.

Fourth factor – Even if do not exercise, even if you have the genes, even if you are exposed to carcinogenic elements, the damaged cell can not proliferate and stay dormant. What is need to those cell get out of control? Animal Protein.. protein is a powerful element to make cell growth and multiply. So when you eat any food that has too much protein, you risk yourself to develop a cancer as you age."

Thanks for making my point for me - different people are different. Also, it is not "food with too much protein" it is "too much total protein intake". Which is easier to achieve with meat, but by the same token it is also easier to get your required protein with meat.



Quote: "I cannot explain that, I would ever doubt even if a psychiatrist could explain that because would be a case that you going to a mind doctor, and as we know nobody is allergic to all plants, and we can replace one over a hundred of veggies options.. Also people are so addicted to salt in their food that if they ever eat anything without salt after 30 year eating a standard American diet you could not expect to feel good just eating for a day or even a month different.. I can say by my own experience. that I didn't feel good taking out meat and dairy for around 3 months.. but I adapted very well, and I feel very good, it's just a matter of we wanting to change."

You are missing the point... no meat = I feel like crap. The reference to things like Celiac and Lactose intolerance were just to point out that people have different digestion and enzyme levels and responses etc. The simple intolerances are just the most well known, because they are the easiest to identify. It is much more difficult to identify a lack of one synthesized amino acid, or under-synthesized, than it is to figure out that someone gets ill every time they drink milk.

Honestly, at your age... if it took you three whole months to adapt to your new diet, you should seriously check yourself for nutritional deficencies. Humans can adapt to and survive under extremely poor conditions.... but if it took you that long to adapt, being a young person, you are quite possibly starving yourself and harming your health.

Also, I do not like excessive salt personally... I prefer no salt on most everything.

Quote: "Autopsies done in real carnivores in various animal that live in zoos around the world and that are extremely sedentary, do not show a simple case of clogged veins or cancer worldwide."

Huh? First off... what carnivore lives to an age even approaching humans? Secondly, animals get cancer all the time.


Quote: "Can you eat crude meat without salt without feeling disgusting, I do not think so. Man begun to use fire not to long ago if we count that our digestive system still the same as 100.000 thousand years ago, like Dr. Roberts said it doesn't take a genius to see where humans line up. What is food that taste good naturally for us sweet fruits and fatty veggies like avocado, without need to put salt or toast them"

Huh? I already pointed out to you that most staples of even a vegan diet are cooked. You keep talking like cooking is something unique to meat... also many people love their meat rare - the reason it is cooked is for hygeine (and the same with many veggies )not taste. Perhaps lack of protein is having a negative effect on your memory? =)

Also, humans digestion has evolved in places much more recently than 100k years. Ability to tolerate lactose for example is thought to have evolved around 10k years ago in northern Europe. Yes, around 10k years ago my ancestors evolved the ability to get health benefits from cow milk. Not that I particularly care for it, but I do rather enjoy cheese.

People whose ancestors hail from warmer climes tend to not have evolved lactose tolerance, because in a pre-refrigeration, pre-microbe aware society cow milk was dangerous to drink for a number of reasons if the cows came from warmer climates. So the lack of lactose processing among people from warmer climates was itself an evolutionary protection. (as an aside, increasing use of spices in prepared dishes has also been correlated to increasingly warmer climates - the warmer the climate the more spices and stronger spices per dish on average. Spices have good anti-microbial and preservation properties. )

You're welcome, so you have accepted that meat is a powerful carcinogenic and can lead to cancer and other diseases as the same tobacco and asbestos and that is why they should be regulated, I cannot you see the government subsiding tobacco or not regulating it.


Meat and specially dairy are addictions, Dr Bernard has explained in an article that cheese is addictive because it contains small amounts of morphine(do you know how much morphine is addictive) from cows' liver, so no wonder why people put cheese on everything. Did you wonder why babies calm down after they are breast feed or drink milk, one of the reasons is the morphine effect. Like you said before that didn't feel “well” this is just one of the reasons about not feeling well, but once you take out the addictive food(Cheese) your system begun to get to normal and not to craving from that addiction like it was tobacco. Rest assured I'm very fine and I take blood tests to check any deficiency, and is everything OK, everything from the vitamins to minerals they come from the ground and plants absorb that, there is no vitamin or mineral that you cannot find in plants. My health is better than 10 years ago.. I run 3 times a week and I feel very good.


I can eat several fruits and vegetables raw, as the most our of ancestors did, so read again that doctor article from Texas, to know what its is about. My memory is better than 15 years ago when I was 20.. I'm one of the best of my class in Law College, perhaps is because there is no any clog caused by animal fat in my brain veins =)


If they evolved please show me how the new digestive system of you and them are, because that doctor from Texas and so many others do not think so. Again and again and again.. tolerate something is different from = is health to you. You can feed dead fish to horse, that doesn't mean that the horse will thrive on it.. About cheese,is just a powerful version of milk without all water content.. is fat and casein(protein from milk) all concentrated.

Yep, and he refuses to look at other things also that are harmful, that other factors are just as important. He is on a crusade against all meat.

Quote: "You're welcome, so you have accepted that meat is a powerful carcinogenic and can lead to cancer and other diseases as the same tobacco and asbestos and that is why they should be regulated, I cannot you see the government subsiding tobacco or not regulating it."

Erm... not quite, I do say that eating too much of anything can be unhealthy though. Do you seriously think overeating anything is good? Its just more difficult with many plants because of the lower calorie/volume ratio.

And are you seriously comparing meat to asbestos? Cmon man, at least try to be at least a little realistic.


Quote: "Meat and specially dairy are addictions, Dr Bernard has explained in an article that cheese is addictive because it contains small amounts of morphine(do you know how much morphine is addictive) from cows' liver, so no wonder why people put cheese on everything. Did you wonder why babies calm down after they are breast feed or drink milk, one of the reasons is the morphine effect. Like you said before that didn't feel “well” this is just one of the reasons about not feeling well, but once you take out the addictive food(Cheese) your system begun to get to normal and not to craving from that addiction like it was tobacco. "

Omg... hah.... its true that some cheese has trace amounts of morphine, but the levels arent enough to "move the needle". I did a double check on this, and the only supporting evidence is provided by activists... no hard science. Its like the Christian groups that self publish all sorts of creationism stuff, there no real evidence.. but the activist industry sure spits out plenty of things to make the "true believers" feel good.

I dont think I have had cheese for several days now, not because of any conscious choice but just because... funny, no cravings or withdrawels.

Your activist "Dr" has now been officially laughed off as a quack. There are plenty of quack doctors out there who make a buck off this or that.

Seriously, using Soviet research from the 80's in the first place? Chances are the local Politburo reps were having a hard time supplying milk and decided to manufacture a reason why people shouldnt be using it anyway.

Anyhow, you are now *really* reaching.


Quote: "I can eat several fruits and vegetables raw, as the most our of ancestors did, so read again that doctor article from Texas, to know what its is about. My memory is better than 15 years ago when I was 20.. I'm one of the best of my class in Law College, perhaps is because there is no any clog caused by animal fat in my brain veins =)"

Well, congrats then. Also, you are older than me! Since you were in law school I figured you were in your early/mid 20's not 30's.

Quote: "If they evolved please show me how the new digestive system of you and them are, because that doctor from Texas and so many others do not think so. Again and again and again.. tolerate something is different from = is health to you. You can feed dead fish to horse, that doesn't mean that the horse will thrive on it.. About cheese,is just a powerful version of milk without all water content.. is fat and casein(protein from milk) all concentrated. "

Um... it is pretty widely known that people in Europe evolved the ability to process lactose. If you are really reading lots of dietary science you should already know this.

----

Ok, now for some breakdown on your quack doctors claims:

1. humans have forward facing eyes, like a carnivore

2. meat is far more efficient as a food source, having much more concentrated caloric content. Meaning you can eat less. The fact that modern relatively wealthy people overeat is moot. When it comes to hard physical labor and conditions, cold weather and etc - meat is far preferable to sustain strength and energy.

3. length of intestines is no indicator or herbivore/carnivore. Longer intestines are present because food is processed more efficiently.

4. Cows have how many stomachs again? Most if not all grazing animals have multiple stomachs

5. Early humans are referred to as "hunter-gatherers" for a reason, do you really think the low caloric content and incomplete nutrition available from gathering plants in many parts of the world could have supported human evolution, especially the large size of our brains ( which consume a significant amount of calories to grow, and power). No, of course not - however humans are the apex predator in any environment on the planet due to our intellect.

6. It requires much more care and effort to maintain nutrition under a vegan diet. You yourself are even apparently aware of such. Can you honestly say with a straight face that humans are designed for such a diet that even with modern knowledge requires much care and effort to pull off correctly? Seriously?

7. Before you start on how many poor populaces in history were largely deprived of meat, I will also remind you that those same populaces were typically very unhealthy. Especially in Europe, members of the relatively wealthy "fighting classes" has high access to meat and grew much larger and stronger than the weak and sickly peasants they were tasked with keeping in line.