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Derid, you go ahead turn your party around back to fiscal conservative party from a religious lunatics party, and you just might meet me at a convention.

I personally think you are better off starting new party, say Libertarians, GOP brand is damaged beyond repair and if you toss out everything that is wrong with it you will be left with less than a half.

Last edited by sinij; 03/22/12 06:17 PM.

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You are not the first to say that Sinij, however there are a couple things to consider.

1) Though a powerful minority, the religious extremists are still a minority in the GOP.

2) The system has been gamed, gerrymandered and rigged to such a degree that 3rd parties face institutional resistance from govt itself. Not to mention the momentum of the existing party apparatus.

I think its more achievable to enact change by co-opting the system, as opposed to trying to build something new from the ground up.

Unfortunately our system is now a two party system for all practical purposes.


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Originally Posted By: Derid

Jet, there are plenty of highly religious people who have no desire to use force to inflict their faith/feelings on the rest of society. The problematic people are not the ones who simply hold to a religion, but rather the ones who think their interpretation of personal faith should be forcibly applied to everyone. You really should take a more granular approach to examining the GOP.

Another thing to remember, is the GOP becomes more secular - by virtue of having more secularists be members.

Also, while I disagree with Mitt Romney on a ton of things I actually have not seen evidence of some kind of Mormon Theocracy or his intent or desire to create one. He was a fairly liberal Gov of Mass. for cryin out loud.

I certainly think it is possible and even common to be a bit too paranoid about religion.

The Church Obama went to was quite an extremist church, I think if you want to hold Romney to some kind of standard based simply on things that may be said at his church - you are being very hypocritical if you do not hold Obama to the same standard.


The racial issue is another matter. Too many blacks are caught in a system that does in fact try to teach them to be Dems. When it comes to Hispanics, the GOP can only blame itself for holding to an idiotic "progressive" platform in regards to immigration and work visas.

( Yes its "progressive" , the conservative/reactionary approach is actually one of relatively easy immigration or at least work visas... which is how it was for the vast bulk of our history. )

Hispanic immigrants are actually typically pretty religious and pretty conservative and the GOP has shot itself in the foot with them because it doesnt have the moral courage to stand up to the ignorant " thearyre takin' urr jobbsss" crowd.

I actually wrote a position paper/ essay that I bought up a ton of research for ( polling data, like Rasmussen platinum etc) to make the case that with shifting demographics and attitudes the GOP needs to change on some issues to reflect the changing reality or there will not be an effective GOP in about 8 years.

GOP is, without changes, in dire straits without reform once the Silent Generation finishes dying off. I consider this potential outcome catastrophic for the nation, regardless of the fact that the GOP as a whole does in fact hold many idiotic positions.



I think your final point is very correct.


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Tennessee opens door to creationism in schools

Consequences of insufficient separation of church and state. Using taxpayer money to fund teaching of religion.

Meanwhile in China, students are learning to be globally competitive.

Last edited by sinij; 04/11/12 10:58 AM.

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Originally Posted By: sinij
Tennessee opens door to creationism in schools

Consequences of insufficient separation of church and state. Using taxpayer money to fund teaching of religion.

Meanwhile in China, students are learning to be globally competitive.



i hate to break it to you, but schools are already teaching religion. example: global warming, radical environmentalism, worship of the state, dialectic materialism. schools should stick to scientific facts and teach theories as theories and debate them. example: in my us govt class i spend as much time talking about communism, socialism, and fascism as i do about representative democracy. my students need to have some basis of comparison before they can decide for themselves.

my own opinion is that neither creationism or spontaneous dvolution can be proven, so schools should teach both and admit nobody knows or ever will know. it makes little difference in most peoples lives, and we are wasting time arguing over it. focus on things that do exist and matter, like non spacial, non temporal mathematical objects.


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re: china

china's only advantage now is that they dont have to contend with things like labor unions, environmentalist, a middle class, voters, litigation, copyright laws, trade and patent laws, or a population that expects a first-world infrastructure.

their days of reckoning with these issues is coming, and when it does, they will end up back in the shit. plus they have a demographic time bomb ticking in the imbalance of men and women in their society.

remember a few things about comparing us education to that of other countries:

many of the countries do not have compulsory education
many track their students by aptitude
many are heterogeneous racially and liguistically

when you factor these in the us is doing pretty well. if you examine the results by race you see that the different ethnic groups in the us score better than their home countries do. ie asians in the us have higher scores than asians is asia, mex-americans better than mexicans and so on. so dont be too hard on the education in the us; it just cant be compared against someplace like finland or japan.


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Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Derid

GOP is, without changes, in dire straits without reform once the Silent Generation finishes dying off. I consider this potential outcome catastrophic for the nation, regardless of the fact that the GOP as a whole does in fact hold many idiotic positions.



I think your final point is very correct.


We have a maxim here in Brazil that translate would be:
people have short memory.

Just get another catastrophe, terrorism that the party is losing the fight in the government will use that as fuel to the campaign. The GOP party didnt like that Obama got Osama. >)


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good point mithus, but have you noticed that despite obamas promises to close guantanamo, end bushes evil war etc he has instead expanded it? i believe that drone assassinations are up eightfold since 2008. he also gets props for ordering the attack on osama by assault rather than by bomb.

i think that once he got into office he got access to certain reports that made him change his tune re: the war on terror. also, democrats realized they were viewed as weak on nat sec, so any more attacks while they were in charge would doom their party.

lastly, love or hate em, the wars in afghanistan and iraq, as well as the secret wars in yemen, pakistan, etc have critically weakened al queda and its sympathizers. you could say that the wars worked a bush was right.

if you study ww2 in the pacific, the last battle the japanese won was when bataan fell in april 1942. after that, they lost every one. 9-11 was kinda like pearl harbor and bataan rolled into one.


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Originally Posted By: Cheerio
my own opinion is that neither creationism or spontaneous dvolution can be proven, so schools should teach both and admit nobody knows or ever will know. it makes little difference in most peoples lives, and we are wasting time arguing over it. focus on things that do exist and matter, like non spacial, non temporal mathematical objects.


Well you cant say "both". Because others have just as much right to have their beliefs taught as Christians. Hence my religion:

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

I am all for it, and I am personally a legally ordained minister.


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Originally Posted By: Cheerio

my own opinion is that neither creationism or spontaneous evolution can be proven, so schools should teach both and admit nobody knows or ever will know.


I don't think you understand how science and scientific theory works. I can't prove that garden gnomes on your front lawn don't sing and dance while nobody is watching.

Creationism is through-and-through religion, there is no supporting evidence, scientific consensus or even any evidence that it could work. Creationisms literally says that some bearded fuck in the sky created universe and humans as we are today in 7 days. This is demonstrably wrong.

Evolution on other hand has been shown in so many situations that it is as much "theory" as "theory of gravity". I dare bunch of you ignorant hicks to question theory of gravity by jumping out of windows of tall buildings.

Quote:
it makes little difference in most peoples lives, and we are wasting time arguing over it.


It makes _HUGE_ difference. If we compromise our intellectual purity with your religious garbage we can no longer guarantee that any of our knowedge is not corrupted. Would you want our medicine to work on "theory of divine intervention" or our agriculture work with "blessing of the crops" ?

Don't you fucking see how dangerous this ignorance is?!


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