The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Mosque

Here's my final thought on the subject. I do belive in freedom of religion. But, the question remains how far does that go. You can not agrue the fact millions of muslims around the world cheered the day the towers fell and that millions of muslims around the world firmly believe in the extermination of all other religions. That being said we have to be careful that we don't become as our enemies are. We must be willing to be open to listen to all people and faiths. But, not to the extent of insulting the innocent people that have died and their families. If the muslim people were sincere in the intentions they could possibly build a memorial to all the people that died that day, and as gesture good faith offer an apology for what others have done in the name of Allah. Likewise their have been many atrocities committed by christian religions and they should step up to the plate and say we do not agree to this and do not believe in it, as has been done over the burning of the Quaran. Anyone that commits acts of violence and hatered in the name of God has a special place in hell. IMHO

Actually it is rather implied, Jefferson himself wrote extensively on the subject when he was president.

My .02


Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.


Yep, they can build it. It's a freedom thing. However, they should NOT be surprised at the Epic Violence
that will likely be visited upon the place daily because someone is too short sighted ( or arrogant )
to realize what is going to happen.

It would be like wearing a Mushroom Cloud T-Shirt to Hiroshima . . . . you can explain your freedom of
expression to the folks kicking your ass all you like, but it isn't going to change the fact you're going to
get your ass kicked . . .

Don't poke bears with sticks and expect sympathy when he eats your ass.
Apparently common sense is rare among the Muslims as well ( at least the ones who think this is a great idea ) . . . . lol

This interview with the Imam wanting to build the mosque is interesting. It sure sounds like to me that he's saying that if the mosque isn't built there will be violence from muslims in the middle east. This is sounding like an ultimatum, build it or face attacks! It's about the 9 minute mark where he talks about it becoming violent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iTIQQ9bmMU

You said it very well.

Maybe that's why they don't want to build it on ground zero but some blocks away.
And there's one simple mean to fight the muslims : make a point to apply your countries laws and not their Sharia shit. No double standard : you fuck up you go to jail. You try to rob / assault someone, don't cry cause she killed you with her gun.

That's what fuck us in Europe : the individual got stripped of all right to defend themselves so violence raised, then politicians cash on the insecurity to get elected so they don't let the police do their job which would be to apply the law to some of those fuckers.

When a "youngster" gets shot and killed by the police in France, people think it's "normal" for his friend to protest fucking up a whole city.
When it happens in swiss, people cheer up for the policemen and there's no "protest".
So defend your right to defend yourself, make a point to see your law being applied and don't let those Sharia stupidity enter any law book. Embrace your constitution so they can't kill the spirit of your nation. That's how you defend your values, not by throwing some of them out when you don't like them.

"Actually it is rather implied, Jefferson himself wrote extensively on the subject when he was president."

Another subject that we could spend many pages on.


With out looking at my papers, Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church that a wall between church and state was more to protect the church not keep religion out of politics. This is one of the reasons for the revolution. Granted he was against the Gov to show any form of religion, even Thanksgiving.

Sorry this is one that gets me excited, I love constitutional talk.

Yeah, and the issue here was protecting a church - well, the Islamic equivalent of one.

I think Arkh has made the best post in the thread though, getting right to the heart of the matter - from a perspective of living in a place where collectivism and govt interventionism is rampant.

Tasorin had it right. I am amazed by what some very smart people believe, they hate us, our way of life, our freedom. People seem to forget we didn’t do anything to them and they brought down the towers. Please don’t give me crap about our governments policies being the reason…..no reasonable semi-sane person really thinks that’s an excuse for mass murder.

It's their way or the grave way.

Even the most moderate Muslim countries are backwards as hell in the way they treat women and people with unconventional lifestyles.

They have every right to build it, but it's just plain wrong and if the intent was to bring about understanding and communication I really want to meet that genius! It will be celebrated around the world as a victory monument over the western devils and I will never buy anything else.

I am so tired of hearing about how we have to be tolerant.....why? That’s like saying the murder victims family has to be understanding of the how the killer was raised and his motivation. How about they learn a little tolerance and then we can start the dialogue? Until then they see our efforts at talk and reason as weakness not strength....sure we know different but this is not about us.
America is not perfect. We are not, nor have we ever been perfect or completely fair but we are as close as this world offers.

Oh and Jet any good Christian will tell you the old testament was done away with when Jesus died on the cross and a new set of rules was set in place all about peace, love and understanding. I am a heathen so I don’t care one way or the other but if you need rules to live by the 10 from on the mountain are a good place to start.

Interesting discussions you are having. Sorry Derid, but this one you are half wrong about. The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. He was attempting to calm the fears of Baptists in Danbury Connecticut and was lettign them know that they were going to be protected from interferrence from the state, but that they would still have some say in how the state ran. Basically the state can not tell the church how to run, but the church could still have some control on the state. You can find more information on it through the US Constitution site. It is a common misunderstanding. Jefferson was very clear about his belief that the government stay out of and have no control on religion, any religion.


It has been an interesting read, and I would not involve myself to much except that I spent 22 years defending the CONSTITUTION of the United States, and as such, whether anyone likes it or not, they have the right to worship as they see fit, where there see fit..thus, the Mosque at Ground Zero. And as such, the preacher in Florida has the right as an American to burn the Quran. Someone before me already stated, just because they have the right to do so does not mean they should do so.

I have done some extensive study on the religions of the world. I will stay completely out of that discussion out of respect for the all the different belief systems here. How you believe is not for me to question or change. Time will tell on both of these issues, and I predict they will both result in acts of violence as people with petty minds and beliefs react rather than respond.