The KGB Oracle Forums General Public Discussion (PUBLIC) The Pub Saving America?

A few of my friends and I have been discussing the problems with America, and it started with a discussion of how we shouldn't be in the Middle East forcing 'ideas' onto a nation in turmoil. When I say 'ideas', I mean we shouldn't be there trying to manipulate their nation and their peoples into a nation formed on ideas. The is the only nation truly formed on ideas to date (all other nations and countries, to my knowledge, have been result of politics and war). These ideas we were founded on came from within ourselves, in an almost spiritual kind of way, so passionate that it was strong enough to form such a great nation; these feelings and ideas cannot be pushed onto a people.

So my point.

America, as some would say, has lost sight of these ideas it was founded on. However, the ideas are still very popular, the problem is that the battles our forefathers fought to ensure these ideas would become realities are now in vain. Our freedom is no more. We're dictated by the government which we think we put into power, while in reality we have virtually no say over who is in office (of higher positions, at least; local/town government is another story), and it's our general disposition to allow things to go on as they are, with the occasional vent at best. And this all goes beyond politics as well and buries itself deep in today's American culture and society.

It has become the goals of many people to dictate the lives of other people, for no obvious reason other than 'because they can'. An AMAZING example of this can be found here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed28.html

I'm extremely passionate about my desire to stand on my metaphorical soap box and help to open the eyes of the public to the fact that their 'freedom' is similar to the situation in the Middle East, where the idea of being free is present, but no one actually grasps it or even understands what 'free' is.

Please read the article I link above and post your comments. I am considering spearheading an activist campaign towards publicizing the truth about our 'freedom' and helping to move towards real freedom. As only a small group of people (my friend and I) who are almost ALWAYS on the same page on our thoughts, I am reaching out to the KGB for people interested in helping us brainstorm on the points of our society that prevent us from being free, and how to bypass or dissolve these points.

If I can generate enough interest between various message boards and direct contact with people who are obviously interested in this same issue (the author of the article I linked, etc...) I will register a domain and host forums for our brainstorming and discussion. I'll ask people to help design fliers to post everywhere available, and guidelines for people to speak out at town meetings. I'd also like to give a write-up of ideas to write both local and federal government about.

In short, our voices need to be heard!

Sign me up.

Seriously.

Edit: Some other worthy Links

George R. R. Martin ( Author of A Song of Ice and Fire series, which I know many of KGB are familiar with)

Bruce Schneier also writes frequently on Freedom, and specifically saecurity-related issues. Heres one of his articles.

Slinger

Let me take this opportunity to respectfully say that you are full of shit. And I'm not shy about saying it.

We are over in the middle east because members of that 7th century throw back of a religion known as militant Islam wants to plunge the world into flame, and either convert or kill everyone on the planet. If you and your buddies would take less time holding hands, singing Kumbaya, and fretting about everything that is wrong with America, and start worrying about the Islamofacists sawing your head off, and throwning a burka over your sister, your mother, you would be ahead of the game.

It's pretty stupid to be worrying that America has lost sight of the values it was founded on when we are at war with an ideology that wants to destroy those values, and impose it's own ideology in it's place.

With all due respect, pull your head out of your ass.

Reasons to support the opening statement:

1. America is now extremely focused upon both Capitalism and Co-Dependency. If you want to take this on a political-witch hunt, then I'll mention the parties involved for both (generally speaking). Extremes of Capitalism = Republicans. Extremes of Co-Dependency = Democrats. Having a hard focus on both of these leads to ultimate control of others and in a nation originally founded by; those favoring freedom of taxation, free enterprise (not to be confused with corporate conglomerates), the Right to Bear Arms (civilians having access to means to defend themselves against a potentially tyrannical government), etc; there is a large amount of inconsistency and lost vision in existence today. This leads me to:

2. The nation is currently in a Bi-Polar state, and has been so for far too long. You have one party in power swinging to one extreme to "correct" what the previous opposing party did, then you have the situation in vice versa 8 years later. This seesawing effect is not only confusing to the youth of the nation, but also neglects that which creates justice to begin with: Balance. When you consider Left wing or Right wing, don't place them in a linear fashion - nothing is truly "Linear" in life. Instead, place both political parties on a circle. You begin at the top center, but if you go to the extreme right and left on this circle simultaneously, they hopelessly collide at the bottom. Both extremes of conservatism and liberalism are similar and meet together on the opposite end of the circle than where you began; meaning that in extremes, both parties create the same amount of destruction and control over the people. When there is Balance, everything is centered. The only parties I've found to be somewhat concerned with balance are independent, but with the young country of America's current childish view of "Black and White", there aren't enough people to see this important enough to break the mould.

-----

Reason's to question and be careful the opening statement of the thread, especially:

Quote:

---

I am considering spearheading an activist campaign towards publicizing the truth about our 'freedom' and helping to move towards real freedom.

---

1. America is in a fragile predicament right now and needs Unconditional Nationalistic and Patriotic support to see it survive, regardless of its mistakes. Personally, I believe it has little to do with any one individual currently in power and more with the crash course America has been heading due to it's bi-polarity. This leads me to:

2. Supporting the Nation while changing it from within in a thoughful way. Egypt has been doing this for a while. Unlike many of its neighbors, the Egyptians are looking inward and developing themselves intellectually to strengthen their nation, rather than grabbing weapons and turning to terrorism. The best way to change the leadership in our nation to find balance is through college and forums. Become a professor, giving students factual information with little to NO political inuendos. In my time at the University of Wisconsin, I came into contact with far too many unprofessional professors preaching and cramming extreme hippy/socialistic ideas into their lessions while simultaneously losing sight of the big picture: That our nation needs not strive against itself, but against polarity. To do this, Speak with balance and moderation in forums where people meet. Any activist going to extremes, aiming for the goal of one party or another, or for freedom with no real solution will NOT be taken seriously.

Karl Marx believed that the only way to change the government and leadership of a nation was through violent overthrow and uprising. I believe he was sadly mistaken. If such a thing were to happen within America, all of us within the United States who ARE enjoying countless freedoms and are taking it for granted, would be led to suffer too much, and at the hands of a foreign nation.

If you're truly looking to help America your first step is to leave America on a tour for a while, and see the rest of the World to gain a broader and more experienced perspective. While America has its faults, it still is a great place to be.

Owain, my youthfully blurred vision of the world made me squirm in my seat while reading your response. I'm not at all interested in the holy war we got ourselves into, and this has nothing to do with it. We're already fighting the war and the job has to be finished, one way or another. This is NOT me bitching about pushing our views on other nations, this is about making people aware of the fact that laws are being passed that are taking away little pieces of our freedom, an inch at a time. It's also about showing people that they CAN speak out when they feel a bill is being proposed that would jeopardize our freedoms even more.

The purpose of the movement is to educate people about the movement.

Go George Bush, go troops, go America. I can't help but secretly support the war we're in, because I'm American. I don't think we should have gone in the first place (and I'm not looking for discussion of that, in this thread at least), but since we're there, I just want the job finished; if we pull out like we did the first time around it could be even worse. Who knows, George Bush the Third could put a hole in the side of the Earth with a nuke if we don't get the job done now.

Crimthan, this is in no way an anti-America movement. I love America, and that's why I want to fix it. Honestly, I'm afraid that the course we're on now will have us nuked within 10 years, and before I was inspired to take action, I just wanted to leave the country. This is an attempt to battle politicians that threaten our freedom, not to remove them from power or make them look bad. These people were put in power to help us, and that's what they should do, but how can they if they are guessing about what we want?

My bluntness in choice of words was likely my blood pumping at 4am over this idea. It's not a political movement, it's not an overthrow of government. It's a free education system that will encourage and allow people to voice their opinions to the government in a way that makes people feel like it's useful.

Until I was inspired to do this my dad would ask me every night "Why don't you do something about the country? It's slowly going to shit and YOU'RE the youth, YOU'RE the next generation." My response was always similar; "I don't know how." or "Nothing I could do would change anything." But now I have an idea, and when I have ideas the answer is go big or go home. I'm not so interested in making small changes here in my home town, as they have so little to do with the way things actually work; I want to impact the entire country.

Here in NY they passed a law a few years ago that banned smoking from all public facilities, including restaurants and bars. Bars that didn't serve food and could prove that not having smokers inside was ruining business could get a special permit to allow smoking there again, but I specifically know about some local businesses that were not eligible for a permit that took a fair hit in their business. I didn't write about this in my original post because I had linked the article by Fred Reed that explained it very well.

It's problems like that that I want to fix; I want to prevent the loss of our freedom, and potentially reclaim some of what has been lost. First, though, the people of this country need to understand that our view on freedom is skewed. Non-smokers didn't gain the freedom to go to a smokeless bar, they always had that freedom, but now smokers have lost their freedom to go to a bar that they *can* smoke in.

Well, given the makeup of many KGBers, stating off a post with the phrase "A few of my friends and I have been discussing the problems with America" is enough to make quite a few of us to become completely unhinged. After devoting a good part of the last 35 years to defending the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic, I will charitably offer that you and your friends, in total, have insufficient insight to speak knowlegably on the subject.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think trivial things like a smoking ban in public places is the greatest threat to Western Civilization at the moment.

If you really want to make a difference, remember what Ronald Reagan said: "SOME PEOPLE SPEND AN ENTIRE LIFETIME WONDERING IF THEY'VE MADE A DIFFERENCE TO THIS WORLD...THE MARINES DON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM."

Crimthan put it a different way, suggesting that perhaps if you were to have an opportunity to see how other countries and cultures operate, you might come away with a different outlook on things. I have traveled to many parts of the world in both Europe and Asia, and although it was always interesting, every minute I spent overseas was an "America Appreciation" event for me.

The US isn't perfect by any stretch, but it is light years ahead of just about everywhere else on the planet.

Sorry I let loose with both barrels on you, but I really had a RCB moment (Red Curtain of Blood), and lost it for a bit. I imagine that Raekwan, currently over in Iraq, would have a similar reaction, as would just about anyone who had any active duty military time.

It's just a viceral thing...

The thing is, I agree with you in a lot of ways. I get pissed off at some of the politically correct bullshit that is so common lately, but you need work on your approach. Starting off talking about how everything in America is fucked up is not the best way to make friends and influence people.

Now that I've calmed down, and blood has stopped squirting from my eyeballs, let me take a look at the stuff you linked to. It may be that we are in violent agreement on the things that are annoying you.

I, however, would look at it as an opportunity to make America better, rather than an example of what makes America such a bad place.

An important difference in philosophy...

Owain, this is exactly why I came here to the KGB forums with my proposal. I know that I already have many friends here and they vary from 16 year old, pot smoking skaters to wise military officers and soldiers to top members of companies, with everything else in between. I'm looking for insight, I have a vision, but I don't personally have the knowledge or the tools to achieve it myself, hopefully here I can find others who have the same vision, and have some more life experience under their belt.

OK, I read the editorial in the link you supplied. I think the guy overstates the case a bit, but on the whole, yeah, there are a lot of blue noses running around who want to try to live your life for you. Personally, I frequently adivise people to "Mind Your Own Goddamn Business" when they try to pull that crap on me, but when the local goverment writes it into the laws, you are kind of screwed.

This, however, is nothing new. The meddlers at one time were so influential that they managed to get a no kiddin' Amendment to the Constitution of the United States officially to sanction such foolish busy body meddling (prohibition). The fact that prohibition was such an abject failure, and a subsequent a Amendment was necessary to repeal it should serve as a case study advising these nanny-staters against further exercises in stupidity.

It could be worse. I could live in Massachusetts...

But it's a free country. If some folks want to indulge in self inflicted wounds like this, then that is my first clue that I don't want to live anywhere as screwed up as that. So, if the people of Illinios want to make owning firearms a crime, then I'll move out west where concealed carry is common and accepted. Maybe that's why I live in Utah, and not New Hampshire.

But far from a sign of what's wrong with America, that is a sign of what makes America great. People get to choose what they want, even if it's something stupid. Hopefully, sooner or later they will figure the stupid parts and keep the good parts, but if your local community wants to go 'San Francisco' on you, move to Texas. This is a big country, and no doubt there are parts of it where you and the folks that live there can see eye to eye, and you don't have to put up with too much nonsense like this.

On the whole, I'm far less worried about this than I am about Iran, and the whole Global War on Terrorism thing.

Gotta have priorities...

Cool Politics!