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Sini #142976 01/12/18 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Owain
And you have no valid argument.


I have to agree with Owain. Simply yelling racist is not going to cut it.

Here is direct questions to you:

a. Should we take in prison population from other countries? If no, why is this not racist view?
b. Should we deport non-citizen immigrants that committed violent crimes in US? If yes, why is this not a racist view?
c. Should we turn away people that professed hatred for our way of life, including rejection of social and civic norms? If yes, why is this not racist view?



I like the leading questions. I'll bite.

A. It's not racist because prisoner is not a race.
B. Non-citizen immigrants who commit violent crimes should be kicked out based on their crime, not their race.
C. No. full stop. Expressing hatred for "our" way of life is such a bullshit leading question. What happened to "free speech". Saying, I hate American values because most Americans are fucking dumb backwards hicks, who bang their family members should not be enough to disqualify someone from citizenship. Saying White people are the devil, although fucked up, should not be the basis of disqualification.

We are a country that went from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” To, "I got mine, fuck you"

My Irish relatives would have never made it into this country if we bared people based on where they were from. My Greek relatives would have never made it into this country if we banned people based on where they were from.

Now that we have gone off the rails, I want to correct the direction of this conversation. Trump is a racist, plain and simple. He has a record of picking out countries where the majority of the population is black, and saying some very inflaming statements. You know, how they bring AID's into this country, they are from "shit holes". I mean, he put the whole CONTINENT of Africa on blast. this joke is getting less funnier the more we continue this.

Last edited by Goriom; 01/12/18 02:34 PM.
Sini #142977 01/12/18 02:32 PM
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Once again, you align yourself with a racist position and expect us to do the work of parsing out why you aren't racist. You can dig your own hole.


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rhaikh #142978 01/12/18 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Once again, you align yourself with a racist position and expect us to do the work of parsing out why you aren't racist. You can dig your own hole.


If you expect your words to carry some credibility, you need to back them with evidence instead of clutching your pearls and screeching in a shrill voice "Racist".

Quote
rac·ist
ˈrāsəst/
noun
noun: racist; plural noun: racists

1.
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.


This definition does not include "2. a person whose views offend rhaikh sensibilities".


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Sini #142979 01/12/18 02:41 PM
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K. I don't really care to argue with you because it's nearly pointless, I'm just here to say I'm watching and so is the rest of this community.


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Goriom #142980 01/12/18 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Goriom
A. It's not racist because prisoner is not a race.


That was a gotcha question. I will now quote incarceration statistics, showing racial differences in incarceration and will proceed to smear you for being anti-black. See how it works?

Quote
B. Non-citizen immigrants who commit violent crimes should be kicked out based on their crime, not their race.


This was also a gotcha question. I will quote violent crime statistic, show that it skewed non-white, I will assert this is because poverty/systematic racism and accuse you of being racist. See how it works?

Quote
C. No. full stop. Expressing hatred for "our" way of life is such a bullshit leading question. What happened to "free speech".


This leaves us with a question - how could a democracy exist if people are not committed to democratic principles? Yes, I understand free speech protections for citizens, it is necessary evil to tolerate anti-democratic views to preserve our freedoms, but why invite more of this evil if there is way to avoid it?

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My Irish relatives would have never made it into this country if we bared people based on where they were from. My Greek relatives would have never made it into this country if we banned people based on where they were from.


I am too an immigrant. I agree that "where they were from" is very imperfect substitute for "who they are". However, I am convinced that there are places in the world where a very few good people live. Otherwise how would you explain these places being hell on Earth throughout history?

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We are a country that went from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”


If we understand that 'well regulated militia' means something else today, why are you literal in this reading? Even then, I am sure the quote didn't include "give me all your pyrates and cutthroats" in the scope.

Last edited by Sini; 01/12/18 07:43 PM.

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rhaikh #142981 01/12/18 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
K. I don't really care to argue with you because it's nearly pointless


It is indeed pointless to argue with me when you have no argument. I will not simply accept your impotent rage and frothing. After decades on the internet, I've developed thick skin and now immune to hit-and-run smearing you seems to enjoy so much - it doesn't phase me anymore.

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I'm just here to say I'm watching and so is the rest of this community.


So now you presume to speak for the rest of us? This is rather arrogant, and you certainly do not speak for me. I wonder how others feel about you trying to speak for them.


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Sini #142982 01/12/18 03:00 PM
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The problem with admitting even refugees from countries where violence is endemic is that they bring that tendency for violence with them. In these countries, a valid election occurs when one side murders those on the other side. The refugees are on the losing side, but they were just less successful at killing their opponents. They have no history or tradition of democratic society, but they do have a LONG history of civil war. When they don't get what they want, the try to overthrow the existing order.

Until they can demonstrate a more civilized method of handling differences, that is not the kind of culture we should be importing to this country.

Last edited by Owain; 01/12/18 03:01 PM.

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Owain #142983 01/12/18 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Owain
The problem with admitting even refugees from countries where violence is endemic is that they bring that tendency for violence with them. In these countries, a valid election occurs when one side murders those on the other side. The refugees are on the losing side, but they were just less successful at killing their opponents. They have no history or tradition of democratic society, but they do have a LONG history of civil war. When they don't get what they want, the try to overthrow the existing order.

Until they can demonstrate a more civilized method of handling differences, that is not the kind of culture we should be importing to this country.


Our forefathers definitely did not have a long history of civil war.

edit: I should clarify - as a caucasian, my sarcastic remark was in reference to the Europeans who first came to the Americas.

Last edited by Brutal; 01/12/18 03:04 PM.
Sini #142984 01/12/18 03:11 PM
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Our forefathers would have preferred to have remained subjects of the King, but tyrannical actions by the British monarchy prevented that.


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Sini #142986 01/12/18 03:18 PM
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I don't know for certain what makes one country violent and failed, and another successful and stable. I suspect predisposition to violence, disregard for laws, and high level of personal ambition in population will lead to failed societies run by gangs and warlords. I suspect that disdain for violence, respect for the rule of law, and high level of personal ambition in population will lead to successful societies lead by an autocrat or as a republic. However, this is just a speculation.

If I were building society from scratch, I'd likely try to keep violent, unruly people out. Maybe if I keep them out too much I will end up with a stagnant collectivist society, some kind of a large hippie commune, but I will certainly will not end up with a warzone. I can say with certainty that US already has plenty of violent and unruly people and that stagnation due to docile population is not in the cards.

Europeans have a very long history of wars, colonialism, religious fanaticism and illiberal tendencies. Is all of this in the past? I would like to think so. Despite all of these wars, religious fanaticism, and illiberal tendencies today all are democratic liberal societies. Would it stay that way? I hope so.

As to shithole countries. It is certainly not the climate. Empty, for example, Liechtenstein and transport all people from a shithole country there and you WILL have a shithole in Liechtenstein. That, I am fairly certain of.


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