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Sini #141835 10/06/17 04:19 PM
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You can't string a bunch of flawed arguments, half-reasons, and emotional knee-jerks and call yourself justified. Doesn't mean that removing these statues isn't the right things to do, but anyone here is yet to present a sound justification to do so. Be it lack or reasons or lack of ability to articulate these reasons, but as someone who doesn't passionately care about these statues I am still convinced that removing them for wrong reasons is counter-productive.


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Sini #141836 10/06/17 04:59 PM
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The charles statue was made when he was still alive. It was sent off to be melted down but was hidden till the restoration of the monarchy system. This has no relevance to my statement.

The obelisk was from a revolt , not a war. This has no relevance to my statement.

The Wolfe-Montcalm doesn't even factor into my statement.

Native American monuments I can partially give into that one.

The Glenfinnan was just The last dying gasp of the Catholics trying to keep control. And it wasn't for a battle or a war just him placing his standard when he arrived on shore

My statement still stands your goggle barrage. The North won. The South lost. Hundreds of statues are erected to the loser of a war and place on public land. Nowhere or in history has this happened other than in America.

Helemoto #141837 10/06/17 05:07 PM
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The taking down of the monuments is a local issue. If the city decided they don't want it there anymore it is the right of the city to do so. It doesn't matter if it's a racist statue or a 20 foot dick. I live in a state the doesn't have a single memorial of the civil war and I know the right side won. People don't need statues to figure it out.

Helemoto #141847 10/08/17 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Helemoto
The taking down of the monuments is a local issue. If the city decided they don't want it there anymore it is the right of the city to do so. It doesn't matter if it's a racist statue or a 20 foot dick.


Absolutely, but this isn't what is happening, and this isn't what we discussing. We are talking here about outsider activists coming in and pressuring, or sometimes just tearing it down themselves. At that point it becomes a clusterfuck of social signaling and displays of dominance between far right and far left groups.


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Sini #141849 10/09/17 12:32 AM
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More moving the goalpost, straw men and manifestations of defense mechanisms. Whatever.


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Sini #141850 10/09/17 08:12 AM
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Rhaikh, so your attempts at good-faith arguments turned out to be short lived. However, I will keep asking these questions and will continue pointing out that you cannot be justified in your position, whatever it happens to be, until you have answers to these.

1. Where is your red line on actions of the protesters? Is destruction of property unrelated to statues acceptable? Attacks on journalists? Initiating violence?
2. Do you acknowledge that these statues have non-zero historical value?
3. Do you acknowledge that Civil War was fought over significantly broader set of issues than just slavery vs. anti-slavery?
4. Are you willing to accept that different points of view, other than slavery vs. anti-slavery, could exists in relation to statues? That is, are these statues only represent slavery, and nothing else?

Take your time.


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Sini #141853 10/09/17 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by Helemoto
The taking down of the monuments is a local issue. If the city decided they don't want it there anymore it is the right of the city to do so. It doesn't matter if it's a racist statue or a 20 foot dick.


Absolutely, but this isn't what is happening, and this isn't what we discussing. We are talking here about outsider activists coming in and pressuring, or sometimes just tearing it down themselves. At that point it becomes a clusterfuck of social signaling and displays of dominance between far right and far left groups.



Does it really matter if an outside group comes to town to help the people of that town protest the monuments? I think not. This is what this country is about. I am pretty sure the ones coming to keep them up are not all from the same town.

Helemoto #141857 10/10/17 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Helemoto
Does it really matter if an outside group comes to town to help the people of that town protest the monuments?


To me it does. It creates sense of false consensus and it does impose outside influence on the locale. I see ANTIFA protests as mostly intimidation tactic and show of power from the radical left. Tearing down of statues is a display of muscle and a message - "Look, we can come into your community, do whatever we want lawlessly and get away with it. You better fall in line."

Think of it this way, how would you react if a bunch of Californians chose your neighborhood to protest Trump because your neighborhood voted for him? Along with property destruction and masked thugs intimidating local newspaper reporter? The same arguments - it is anti-racism, for promotion of equality and so on can be made.


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Sini #141858 10/10/17 03:08 PM
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So when Martin Luther King Left Alabama to help others protest, you see that as bad? We have a long history of people going to other areas of the country to help protest. Imagine what the country would look like if everyone stayed only in the areas you see fit to keep them.

Sini #141861 10/11/17 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sini
Rhaikh, so your attempts at good-faith arguments turned out to be short lived. However, I will keep asking these questions and will continue pointing out that you cannot be justified in your position, whatever it happens to be, until you have answers to these.


I'm glad someone here is the official arbiter of valid positions.

Originally Posted by Sini

1. Where is your red line on actions of the protesters? Is destruction of property unrelated to statues acceptable? Attacks on journalists? Initiating violence?
2. Do you acknowledge that these statues have non-zero historical value?
3. Do you acknowledge that Civil War was fought over significantly broader set of issues than just slavery vs. anti-slavery?
4. Are you willing to accept that different points of view, other than slavery vs. anti-slavery, could exists in relation to statues? That is, are these statues only represent slavery, and nothing else?

Take your time.


1. My opinion on this is tangential to the issue of whether or not the statues deserve to remain where they are and I'm not going to go there just because that's the debate you'd rather have
2. Case by case basis, majority no, vast majority are providing insincere/whitewashed representations of history
3. My opinion on this is tangential to the issue of whether or not the statues deserve to remain where they are and I'm not going to go there just because that's the debate you'd rather have
4. Are you trying to say that your sexual fetish is being near a statue of a confederate soldier? More power to you, but for a huge swath of Americans they represent systemic oppression and racism, and that interpretation is not only objectively accurate but contemporaneously by the people who put them up, and currently by some people who want them to stay up, the desired interpretation. On balance, the consideration of your sexual fetish and the well-meaning but misguided ancestors of confederate soldiers simply do not measure up, given the alternative compromises (relocation and reinterpretation) that exist.



Last edited by rhaikh; 10/11/17 12:08 PM.

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