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Sini #141815 10/02/17 07:44 PM
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They are monuments to losers, they shouldn't even be up. They are racist because racist put them up.

Helemoto #141816 10/03/17 04:50 AM
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The Arc de Triomphe was commissioned by Napoleon, who also ended up being a loser.

Sini #141818 10/03/17 05:29 AM
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Magna Carta is signed by a loser.


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rhaikh #141819 10/03/17 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh


I am arguing about the "why," not the "how." I appreciate that there is a debate about the "how," but it is separate from the "why." However, I will say that I support Goriom's analysis of Trump's speech immediately following Charlottesville, and again I believe that inaction and dismissal of the issue is itself indicative of the problem.

This is not a hypothetical argument. That we have statues romanticizing traitors and slavers in government property is one of the most literal, and tangible, instances of racial injustice I can think of. Many people in this thread, including yourself, and in America generally have literally stated that they don't actually care about the statues. Fine, but then please get out of the way instead of aligning yourself with Nazis.


By telling me that I am somehow "in your way" and aligned with Nazis for criticizing your methods, you are implicitly stating that purported ends justify the means which is not only incorrect - it is a far, far more dangerous manner of thinking than simply supporting, not supporting, or not caring about statues.

If only the purported ends matter, and not the means (or the real consequences) then you can literally self-justify any action in favor of something you feel strongly about. Like an Aryan utopia, or a communist paradise. Your type of emotional thinking is how those kinds of grand tragedies can happen in the first place.

You are correct that I don't care about the statues. There are a lot of things in this world, and I won't pretend to care about all of them. There are a lot of people in this world, and I won't pretend to care about all of them either. Humans aren't built to care about everything. I've found that people who claim to do so are usually either broken sociopaths, or self-aggrandizing hypocrites who mistake their selective outrage for doing good. Hence all the emotion-laden assertions and non-arguments, because the real goal isn't doing good - it's forwarding ones own sense of superiority. It's a highbrow version of watching Ricki Lake or those other sordid daytime TV shows - people didn't watch them because of any sympathy, they watched them so they could look down on others and feel better about themselves.

Similarly, I don't think people who want to focus the world on some statues feel any real sympathy for those purportedly impacted by them. If they did, they'd care more about means, and real consequences.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141823 10/04/17 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Brutal
The Arc de Triomphe was commissioned by Napoleon, who also ended up being a loser.


Well since the guy who commissioned it was a national hero I don't think this really applies here. Also, it was to commemorate a victory.


Originally Posted by Sini
Magna Carta is signed by a loser.


Magna Carta was his attempt to keep the peace. Also, it is not a monument.

My limited education in history may be wrong.

Helemoto #141824 10/05/17 06:06 AM
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I've never seen or heard of Napoleon depicted as a French national hero, at least not by anything other than a small minority. And I could list all the confederate victories, but that's not the point I was making. I'm simply pointing out that if your argument "They are monuments to losers" were valid, it would apply to quite a lot of monuments.

Sini #141827 10/05/17 05:17 PM
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One of the greatest military commanders of history, he is studied today in military schools. He won almost all of his battle and wars. Not to mention the social side and his Civil Code and Napoleon Code all of which laid the foundation of modern Europe. There are monuments erected to him in other countries. If you don't think the French love him you need to read more.

It doesn't matter how many confederate victories there were. They lost. Only in American could these monuments have been erected.

What other monuments are you talking about? I am really interested not trolling

Helemoto #141829 10/05/17 07:12 PM
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Just google "monuments to losers" (add -confederate if you want to try to weed those out) if you want to see some lists. Your arguments in support of Napoleon are fascinating, but still beside the point.

1. "They are monuments to losers"
2. "Here are other monuments to losers"
3. "But those are good losers"

This is how the argument breaks down. If you wish to amend your original argument feel free; my only point was that, when stated as broadly as you did, your argument doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Brutal #141830 10/05/17 07:19 PM
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My argument was they lost why are we putting up monuments to losers. If that doesn't make sense then we sense differently

Also, my argument is losers in a war. Not lost cause granny that people felt bad about.

So your counter argument goggle yourself.

Last edited by Helemoto; 10/05/17 07:25 PM.
Helemoto #141831 10/06/17 10:55 AM
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Ok man, if this will get us back to the actual argument, here you go (taken from the first link when googling as I mentioned):

Statue of Charles I, who was King of England and was deposed and beheaded after the English Civil War. Displayed in London.
The Obelisk of Sao Paulo commemorates the losers of the failed 1932 Sao Paulo Civil War.
The Wolfe-Montcalm Monument in Quebec commemorates both the winner and loser of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham.
The Tecumseh Monument (for that matter, just about ANY Native American Monument would apply) in Ontario

Originally Posted by some guy on Quora
The Province of Quebec even has a holiday (and monuments) to the ‘Patriotes’ of the failed 1838 rebellion in Lower Canada (Quebec). Some people have even put up memorials to the failed Upper Canada rebellion as well. There are even monuments to the Fenian raids, which failed of course.


The Glenfinnan Monument commemorates the failed Jacobite Rising by Prince Charles Edward Stuart in Scotland

I'm not going to waste any more of my life on this argument, but by all means feel free to dissect these few examples I've listed and tell me why these are all good losers, more worthy of commemoration than any other loser.

edit: Hilariously, the first link I opened on reddit after submitting this post was this image, which sums up the danger of forgetting about the losers in history, whether they deserved to lose or not.

Last edited by Brutal; 10/06/17 10:58 AM.
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