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Banshee #141780 09/28/17 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Banshee
I thought almost everyone agreed that the Civil War was about much more than slavery, so knowing that why is Robert E. Lee a symbol of racism?

Who in goods name does this "to continue their romanticization of the culture of slavery unchecked." besides the extreme groups we all know like the KKK.


Read or watch the entirety of Mitch Landrieu's speech. Specifically this part:

Quote
The historic record is clear: The Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and P.G.T. Beauregard statues were not erected just to honor these men, but as part of the movement which became known as The Cult of the Lost Cause. This “cult” had one goal—through monuments and through other means—to rewrite history to hide the truth, which is that the Confederacy was on the wrong side of humanity.



Originally Posted by Banshee
That you think there is a status quo southern communities in mass are trying to maintain is just stupid honestly and speaks more to your bias.


I am referring specifically to the status quo of maintaining the presence of statues which were erected by Klansmen.


Please read about White Fragility. The evidence of its accuracy is oozing out of this thread.

https://www.salon.com/2016/07/18/wh...hemselves_during_discussions_about_race/

Last edited by rhaikh; 09/28/17 01:46 PM.

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rhaikh #141781 09/28/17 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
dogma


I wholly reject that I have not already laid out this argument in this thread, which is why I've been continually ignoring you saying that I have, but for sake of reference I will do so one more time.

The statues were put up by essentially Klansmen, in direct response to the events in the United States years AFTER the civil war and leading up to and after the Civil Rights Movement, and in whole or in part to signal that the communities they reside in stand for the ideology of white supremacy and white nationalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

Nazis today wish to maintain the status quo, to further their own cause of white nationalism.

Besides blatant racism, spurious dog-whistle arguments about the historical value of these statues are being uses by Nazis and others to maintain the status quo.

Aside from being disingenuous, these arguments are demonstrably false because history books and museums will continue to exist among other incredibly obvious reasons. At bare minimum, in my opinion, these statues should be interpreted and contextualized and not allowed to continue their romanticization of the culture of slavery unchecked.

By supporting these arguments and rejecting their clear purpose, you are therefore de facto, in action if not in spirit, supporting the cause of white nationalism.

You also continually suggest that I have not given justification as to the necessity for the statues to be removed. Aside from the fact that it opposes nazis, I think it's clear that having symbols of racism and oppression prominently featured on government lands and in public spaces serves as an unnecessary reminder to African Americans of the lengths to which our culture and society still need to go to truly accept them. Additionally they serve as false signals to white people that racism is normal, which when combined with all other sources of normalization, contributes to the perpetuation of racism and systemic oppression.

No, removing the statues will not solve all of the worlds problems. Yes, there are other problems to concern yourselves with, in addition to this one. This is just one step along a generational journey of tolerance. A step you are opposing to no fruitful benefit.



There are a few problems with your reasoning though, as well as your base assumptions.

The first and most important is your assertion that Nazis place a lot of import on the statues themselves. This is fundamentally incorrect. What Nazis and white nationalists actually seek is attention. What they fear is marginalization and being ignored.

When people and go make a big deal about 20 of them gathering, and when a bunch of violent counter-protestors appear at their rallies, and the home pages of digital newspapers are filled with copious stories about them - they aren't saying to themselves "Aw, shucks. It looks like people don't like us, this isn't good." No, what they are saying is "OMG THIS IS AWESOME, WE LOOK SO HUGE AND POWERFUL AND EVERYONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO US!"

The status quo for the past several decades had actually been a decline in racism to the point where Southern localities will even attempt to remove statues on their own, which is not in the interest of the white nationalists at all. What they seek is conflict and attention, and by giving it to them you are feeding the troll, not defeating it. Stepping into the debate as the leftist, commie, coastal "other" just puts the locals who do want to remove the statues in a bad spot. Appearing to cave to ANTIFA pressure on anything is a recipe for political suicide.

White nationalists are basically sock puppets, dressed up in ridiculous fashion and holding little get-togethers with the few other sock puppet aficionados, and hoping other people come to watch the show. By shining a huge spotlight of attention on them, the sock puppets cast monstrous shadow puppets on the wall - appearing large and frightening - while giving them that which they most desire.

The danger here is that people see how easy it is to troll the world, and decide to join the trolls.

The moral of the story here is that you shouldn't base any of your actions on what you think Nazis want, especially if you don't know what they actually want. You might wake up one day to realize that you'd been playing into their hands all along. This is also an example of why ends don't justify means.

What you should be doing, is confronting the ANTIFA types and sympathizers in your own circle, because criticism from outside isn't going to matter - but rather feed them in the same manner attention feeds the Nazi-wannabes.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
rhaikh #141782 09/28/17 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Banshee
I thought almost everyone agreed that the Civil War was about much more than slavery, so knowing that why is Robert E. Lee a symbol of racism?

Who in goods name does this "to continue their romanticization of the culture of slavery unchecked." besides the extreme groups we all know like the KKK.


Read or watch the entirety of Mitch Landrieu's speech. Specifically this part:

Quote
The historic record is clear: The Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and P.G.T. Beauregard statues were not erected just to honor these men, but as part of the movement which became known as The Cult of the Lost Cause. This “cult” had one goal—through monuments and through other means—to rewrite history to hide the truth, which is that the Confederacy was on the wrong side of humanity.



Originally Posted by Banshee
That you think there is a status quo southern communities in mass are trying to maintain is just stupid honestly and speaks more to your bias.


I am referring specifically to the status quo of maintaining the presence of statues which were erected by Klansmen.


Please read about White Fragility. The evidence of its accuracy is oozing out of this thread.

https://www.salon.com/2016/07/18/wh...hemselves_during_discussions_about_race/


I don't think anyone is of a mind that modern slavery is on the right side of history.

The article about white fragility is a pretty good example of the ridiculousness that tries to pass itself off as intellectualism these days. Especially the part about avoiding the issue, which is pure drivel.

There are good reasons for many whites to dislike discussing race, and it has nothing to do with any repressed feelings of guilt. It directly stems from the fact that quite often, the people trying to talk about race are the type to make junk assertions and bad-faith arguments, then switch to social shaming tactics if the recipients of their attention don't immediately knuckle over and loudly proclaim the correctness and moral wisdom of the person trying to push their view.

If you want an example of this type of behavior I'm referring to, I suggest grabbing a mirror.

Last edited by Derid; 09/28/17 02:25 PM.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141784 09/28/17 04:07 PM
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"We should do nothing about this problem because it will go away on its own and talking about it is part of the problem and also there are other things to worry about"

ref. pg1 white fragility brochure

What do Nazis stand to gain if everyone who quote "didn't care either way" simply agreed that the statues should go away? If you really don't care, then why do you care enough to say we shouldn't oppose Nazis?


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Sini #141786 09/29/17 05:55 AM
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I only care because I am a middle aged white guy from the south and apparently I am a racist. I really don't care about a bunch of statues, what I do care about is this constant moaning about how I am the cause of all the problems minorities face. I work 50 hours a week or more to provide for my family, I am not rich, not college educated (obviously), I did not own slave's...my family is not from a line of southern wealth that did own slaves. My family was poor and everything I have has been earned at jobs you would think are beneath you from the sounds of it...I don't owe anyone anything. I spent 10 years in the Army serving this country so I resent the implication that I am a Nazi sympathizer or racist in any shape...I have always judged men on who they are and how they act not what they look like.

This is America, you want something you work toward it..you may not get what you want but maybe your kids will by learning from your example...that is the American Dream. We as Americans are not owed anything, the only guarantee in life is that it will end. People need to quit living in the past, in America if you are good at what you do you will prosper, maybe just maybe people today have too high of an opinion of what life owes them.

America is not perfect, we have issues, we have been very hard on every group of immigrants that has ever landed on our shores not to mention what we did to the people who were here first. America is a dream, an idea and in working toward it we all improve and things get better, not overnight but over time and yes sometimes over a long period of time. We need to know our history and learn from it but we do not need to dwell on it, wallow in self pity or rage at the moon. We start again every day trying/hoping to do better.

I am not the only person who feels this way...that is why we rail at east/west coast liberal elites who tell us how bad we are not some love of a bygone era.

Sermon over...pardon the lack of debate club reasoning.


rhaikh #141788 09/29/17 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
"We should do nothing about this problem because it will go away on its own and talking about it is part of the problem and also there are other things to worry about"

ref. pg1 white fragility brochure

What do Nazis stand to gain if everyone who quote "didn't care either way" simply agreed that the statues should go away? If you really don't care, then why do you care enough to say we shouldn't oppose Nazis?


My entire broadside against your faction and thinking targeted the means, not the ends.

The "how" is important, and that is where you are failing.

Purported ends do not justify the means. If your approach to dealing with racism actually ends up creating more division, and providing safe haven for the racists, then shouldn't you rethink the tactics? This is a widespread problem with the larger left, where addressing real instances of racial injustice in a thoughtful manner have taken a back seat to finding ways to self-flagellate over white guilt and touting one's own supposed moral enlightenment.

Rhetorical questions like "what if everyone simply agreed to X" are reminiscent of hippy magical thinking "what if everyone just decided to make love not war, wouldn't the world suddenly be great". Sure, it would be, now lets deal with a reality that is drastically more complex.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141798 09/30/17 06:45 PM
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I personally can't stand knee-jerk shaming. He could be advocating for a feasible solution for a world peace, and the moment he attempted shaming I'd be against it.


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rhaikh #141799 09/30/17 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
The statues were put up by essentially Klansmen, in direct response to the events in the United States years AFTER the civil war


While I disagree with this, as your definition of Klansmen pretty much includes any Southerner from that era, I will grant you this point for sake of argument. However, considering most of these statues were built quite some time ago, all these Klansmen are dead.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
in whole or in part to signal that the communities they reside in stand for the ideology of white supremacy and white nationalism.


This is unsubstantiated assertion. There are other possibilities that you have to consider - that this was at one point true, but with time no longer the case; that it might intend to signal such, but is ineffective at doing so; that for many different people it stands for different things, while you might be correct in case of supremacists, there are many non-supremacists that take different meaning from these.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Nazis today wish to maintain the status quo, to further their own cause of white nationalism.

Status quo is irrelevance and powerlessness of Nazis. Why would they want to maintain this? They can't even openly advocate their view in a public sphere without getting condemned. In this way ANTIFA violence is completely unnecessary and actually counter-productive.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
spurious dog-whistle arguments about the historical value of these statues

You might not like it, but these statues do have historical value. You can't argue it away, the best you can do is present arguments why we should disregard this value.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Aside from being disingenuous, these arguments are demonstrably false because history books and museums will continue to exist

It is very easy to demonstrate that a great deal of historical artifacts, places, monuments and so on exist outside of museums. To use your flawed logic - lets tear down White House and replace it with a soulless modern office building, after all it will still exist in museums and history books.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
By supporting these arguments and rejecting their clear purpose, you are therefore de facto, in action if not in spirit, supporting the cause of white nationalism.

This is fallacy.

What you say can by transcribed as follows:

Nazi argue monuments are historical
You argue monuments are historical
Therefore you are a Nazi

or

Nazi like cheese
You like cheese
Therefore you are a Nazi

I hope even you can see how ridiculous and broken such arguments are.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
Additionally they serve as false signals to white people that racism is normal, which when combined with all other sources of normalization, contributes to the perpetuation of racism and systemic oppression.


How do you see this actually working? That is, you keep asserting that these statues lead to increased racism. However, you fail to outline any mechanism for this.

Two can play this game: These statues serve as a reminders of regretful past and the necessity to not repeat it to everyone involved. This contributes to reduction of racism and deeper understanding between different racial groups.

Both of these arguments are pure BS. These statues do not change how people treat each other.

Originally Posted by rhaikh
No, removing the statues will not solve all of the worlds problems.

Have you paused to consider that removing these statues would CREATE more problems than it solves? One problem I keep bringing up, and you keep ignoring, that reaction to tearing down statues would actually push some, people that see these statues as part of Southern Identity, to sympathize/side with supremacists?


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Sini #141803 10/01/17 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Banshee
I have always judged men on who they are and how they act not what they look like.


I don't know what any of you look like. I am just pointing out that the appeal to history aligns itself with Nazi ideology.

I appreciate your perspective Banshee. I think you need to realize that despite the hardships you face, if you were African American you would have statistically been starting at a disadvantage. Part of that comes from the persistence of racist attitudes stemming from the civil war and specifically the presence of symbols and acts of racism in our government. This is part of the struggle that African Americans face, and they say that removing these statues is an important step for them to help even the field for their persuit of the American dream. For them, this is not pointless whining, but rather a clear physical manifestation of their disadvantage, one that can be easily addressed immediately, unlike the systemic prejudice it helps perpetuate.


Originally Posted by Derid

My entire broadside against your faction and thinking targeted the means, not the ends.

The "how" is important, and that is where you are failing.

Purported ends do not justify the means. If your approach to dealing with racism actually ends up creating more division, and providing safe haven for the racists, then shouldn't you rethink the tactics? This is a widespread problem with the larger left, where addressing real instances of racial injustice in a thoughtful manner have taken a back seat to finding ways to self-flagellate over white guilt and touting one's own supposed moral enlightenment.

Rhetorical questions like "what if everyone simply agreed to X" are reminiscent of hippy magical thinking "what if everyone just decided to make love not war, wouldn't the world suddenly be great". Sure, it would be, now lets deal with a reality that is drastically more complex.


I am arguing about the "why," not the "how." I appreciate that there is a debate about the "how," but it is separate from the "why." However, I will say that I support Goriom's analysis of Trump's speech immediately following Charlottesville, and again I believe that inaction and dismissal of the issue is itself indicative of the problem.

This is not a hypothetical argument. That we have statues romanticizing traitors and slavers in government property is one of the most literal, and tangible, instances of racial injustice I can think of. Many people in this thread, including yourself, and in America generally have literally stated that they don't actually care about the statues. Fine, but then please get out of the way instead of aligning yourself with Nazis.

Originally Posted by Sini
I personally can't stand knee-jerk shaming. He could be advocating for a feasible solution for a world peace, and the moment he attempted shaming I'd be against it.


Yes, we've already established that you care more about the attendance of debate club than the agenda.

Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
in whole or in part to signal that the communities they reside in stand for the ideology of white supremacy and white nationalism.


This is unsubstantiated assertion. There are other possibilities that you have to consider - that this was at one point true, but with time no longer the case; that it might intend to signal such, but is ineffective at doing so; that for many different people it stands for different things, while you might be correct in case of supremacists, there are many non-supremacists that take different meaning from these.


If you want me to prove that people agree with me that the statues are racist in the present, then just turn on the news. I grant that some people dismiss any debate about race as an unncessary distraction, although they are wrong, and I'll accept that you grant that they were contemporaneously racist.

Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Nazis today wish to maintain the status quo, to further their own cause of white nationalism.

Status quo is irrelevance and powerlessness of Nazis.


As I said earlier, I am referring to the status quo of having racist monuments in prominent public places.


Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
spurious dog-whistle arguments about the historical value of these statues

You might not like it, but these statues do have historical value. You can't argue it away, the best you can do is present arguments why we should disregard this value.


Since many of these monuments were mass produced, they have as much historical value as an old fashioned sardine can. But for the rest of them, since these people can be most generously described as traitors, and this obvious description is not provided in a contexualized way, then it's clear that the historical value does not outweigh the recurring cost to society. I don't even really need to invoke issues of race to prove this point.

Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Aside from being disingenuous, these arguments are demonstrably false because history books and museums will continue to exist

It is very easy to demonstrate that a great deal of historical artifacts, places, monuments and so on exist outside of museums. To use your flawed logic - lets tear down White House and replace it with a soulless modern office building, after all it will still exist in museums and history books.


I honestly don't understand your argument. If a certain local government decided to remove their symbols of slavery, and gave the United Daughters of the Confederacy or the KKK or whomever desired to foot the bill the authority to move them into a museum, I am not opposed.

Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
By supporting these arguments and rejecting their clear purpose, you are therefore de facto, in action if not in spirit, supporting the cause of white nationalism.

This is fallacy.

What you say can by transcribed as follows:

Nazi argue monuments are historical
You argue monuments are historical
Therefore you are a Nazi

or

Nazi like cheese
You like cheese
Therefore you are a Nazi

I hope even you can see how ridiculous and broken such arguments are.
...
One problem I keep bringing up, and you keep ignoring, that reaction to tearing down statues would actually push some, people that see these statues as part of Southern Identity, to sympathize/side with supremacists?


Opinions on cheese are ideologically orthogonal to the ideology of white supremacy. Arguments about historical value of symbols of slavery are parallel. I'm not going to check under people's shirts for swastika tattoos before I challenge white supremacist ideology and call it out for what it is. I don't care what their motivation is.

Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Additionally they serve as false signals to white people that racism is normal, which when combined with all other sources of normalization, contributes to the perpetuation of racism and systemic oppression.


How do you see this actually working? That is, you keep asserting that these statues lead to increased racism. However, you fail to outline any mechanism for this.

Two can play this game: These statues serve as a reminders of regretful past and the necessity to not repeat it to everyone involved. This contributes to reduction of racism and deeper understanding between different racial groups.

Both of these arguments are pure BS. These statues do not change how people treat each other.


Yeah, your argument is BS because the statues are not solemn symbols of regret, they are presented as heroic romanticizations.

People aren't born racist. If your father is a Nazi and you walk around town and there are grandiose symbols aligned with his world view in the public square, you are more likely to end up just like him, and the inverse is also true.


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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
I personally can't stand knee-jerk shaming. He could be advocating for a feasible solution for a world peace, and the moment he attempted shaming I'd be against it.


Yes, we've already established that you care more about the attendance of debate club than the agenda.


You at least have to pause to consider that there might be others that would feel that way. Wait, what if there was a better way to convince others... No, that is crazy talk. More shaming got to do the tick.


Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
in whole or in part to signal that the communities they reside in stand for the ideology of white supremacy and white nationalism.


This is unsubstantiated assertion. There are other possibilities that you have to consider - that this was at one point true, but with time no longer the case; that it might intend to signal such, but is ineffective at doing so; that for many different people it stands for different things, while you might be correct in case of supremacists, there are many non-supremacists that take different meaning from these.


If you want me to prove that people agree with me that the statues are racist in the present, then just turn on the news.


So we now settle debate by media frenzy? Need I remind you that this approach brought us Trump? He would still be peddling stakes if less people "just turn on the news".



Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Nazis today wish to maintain the status quo, to further their own cause of white nationalism.

Status quo is irrelevance and powerlessness of Nazis.


As I said earlier, I am referring to the status quo of having racist monuments in prominent public places.


You repeatedly failed to establish that they are racists. Simply stating it again won't do it. I hope you eventually catch on and stop doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different outcome.


Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
spurious dog-whistle arguments about the historical value of these statues

You might not like it, but these statues do have historical value. You can't argue it away, the best you can do is present arguments why we should disregard this value.


Since many of these monuments were mass produced, they have as much historical value as an old fashioned sardine can.


This is actually a good argument, I am glad you are trying. Less shaming, and couple more arguments and you might start convincing people.


Quote
since these people can be most generously described as traitors


This is not a good argument. Many people from south see them as patriots and this has nothing to do with slavery. Southern Identity is a real thing and your attempts to deny it exists would be seen as an attack. Since it isn't core of your argument, you are better off not mentioning it to not unnecessary alienate people.


Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Aside from being disingenuous, these arguments are demonstrably false because history books and museums will continue to exist

It is very easy to demonstrate that a great deal of historical artifacts, places, monuments and so on exist outside of museums. To use your flawed logic - lets tear down White House and replace it with a soulless modern office building, after all it will still exist in museums and history books.

If a certain local government decided to remove their symbols of slavery, and gave the United Daughters of the Confederacy or the KKK or whomever desired to foot the bill the authority to move them into a museum, I am not opposed.


I am not opposed to that either, but this is not what we were talking about up to this point. It was lawless and often violent demonstrators that were not local that pulled down these statues in front of cameras while yelling various endearing phrases like "down with white privilege!"

Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
By supporting these arguments and rejecting their clear purpose, you are therefore de facto, in action if not in spirit, supporting the cause of white nationalism.

This is fallacy.

What you say can by transcribed as follows:

Nazi argue monuments are historical
You argue monuments are historical
Therefore you are a Nazi

or

Nazi like cheese
You like cheese
Therefore you are a Nazi

I hope even you can see how ridiculous and broken such arguments are.
...
One problem I keep bringing up, and you keep ignoring, that reaction to tearing down statues would actually push some, people that see these statues as part of Southern Identity, to sympathize/side with supremacists?


Opinions on cheese are ideologically orthogonal to the ideology of white supremacy. Arguments about historical value of symbols of slavery are parallel.


You can't fix your broken argument without adding another premise. I won't fix it for you, as it is sufficient to point out that:

1. Nazi argue monuments are historical
2. You argue monuments are historical
Therefore you are a Nazi

Is fallacious. That is, you can't conclude I am a nazi based on 1. and 2. alone. Even if you have pictures of me in a white robe in a front of a burning cross doing nazi salute while holding a copy of mein kampf the argument is wrong.




Quote
Originally Posted by Sini
Originally Posted by rhaikh
Additionally they serve as false signals to white people that racism is normal, which when combined with all other sources of normalization, contributes to the perpetuation of racism and systemic oppression.


How do you see this actually working? That is, you keep asserting that these statues lead to increased racism. However, you fail to outline any mechanism for this.

Two can play this game: These statues serve as a reminders of regretful past and the necessity to not repeat it to everyone involved. This contributes to reduction of racism and deeper understanding between different racial groups.

Both of these arguments are pure BS. These statues do not change how people treat each other.


Yeah, your argument is BS


My argument is BS because it is unsubstantiated. So is yours.


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