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rhaikh #141473 08/28/17 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
Interesting graph. Civil war ended in 1865, but the peak statue construction appears to be 40 years later. I know nothing about the United Daughters of the Confederacy, other than about anyone from South in that era would be considered full blown racist by modern standards. The biggest spike appears to be from 1900 to 1915. What factors would you attribute it to?



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Bad stuff happened last century and every century before that. The graph zeroed out around 1940s, so almost nobody alive today experienced this. What does this has to do with tearing down statues in 2017?



Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
Building of statues around civil right movement could be considered suspicious, I'd support removal of any confederate statue put up in that era. Say 1960 and newer should go. But statues erected more than 100 years ago? To me, that is history.


Quit moving the fucking goal post.


The goal posts are still at "statues have nothing to do with racism in 2017". You made a point that some of them were built around civil rights movement. I decided to grant you a point, as clear majority of these statues more than 100 years old and have nothing to do with civil rights movement.



Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Sini
You also make another logical jump in stating "this contributes to an overall normalization of racist attitudes". You reductive view of the civil war leads you to conclude it was racist vs. non-racists, therefore anyone celebrating confederacy must be automatically racist. The reality is much more complex, with racists on both sides.

The war was complex, these statues are not.


How is that even possible? If the war was complex, over complex issues, how statues related to it are suddenly not? What in erecting statues simplifies the issue? What other issues could be simplified with statues? Could I make a statue to life's meaning and suddenly have it all cleared up?


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Originally Posted by Derid
Seems like an odd thing to focus on to be honest. Honestly, to me the whole dealio about statues looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike.


How about some sympathy with people whose entire ancestry is caught up in the slave trade.


Everyone got ancestry. The dead don't care about your sympathy.

We are still talking about tearing down 100 year old statues today, in 2017, and all you can come up with as rationale is selectively pointing out that bad stuff happened in the past. You are still unable to show how torn down statues would help anybody today. You are still unwilling to accept that societal norms changed since 1800s.

Maybe stronger example would better highlight how norms change. For example,Socrates was known for pederasty (sex with young boys) and that was normal practice in Athens. So the founder of Western philosophy would be a criminal pedophile by modern standards. Should we start destroying classical Greek statues over this and other similar "crimes" as well?

Also, what other historical grievances should we consider? What about Native Americans, do they get your permission to tear down Plymouth Rock and statues to Columbus, as these monuments symbolize and celebrate the start of what would be considered a genocide by a modern standard? How about some sympathy there as well?

Last edited by Sini; 08/28/17 09:25 PM.

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rhaikh #141475 08/29/17 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh

Originally Posted by Derid
Seems like an odd thing to focus on to be honest. Honestly, to me the whole dealio about statues looks to be coming from people who generally disdain, don't understand, and don't want to understand the people who live in areas and/or are of a contemporary culture that they dislike.


GTFO of here with this bullshit. How about some sympathy with people whose entire ancestry is caught up in the slave trade.


Originally Posted by Derid
an era where things were good for them.


Precisely why the war was fought.


Originally Posted by Sini
I fully agree with you.



This, of all things, is the reductionist attitude in this thread.


What does having sympathy for people have to do with anything? Don't tell me that's the primary motive in picking up the pitchforks and torches over some old statues, cause frankly that's laughable. The real furor over statues didn't start bubbling out until Trump won the election and rage at the "Trump people" reached a crescendo and you know it. If you have sympathy for people afflicted by generational poverty, it seems like common sense to attack policies that perpetuate that situation instead of statues of people long since dead and gone.

The question here is what attempting to remove the statues actually is going to accomplish. All I see stemming from it is more mutual hatred and greater divisions. Just like you responded with some emotion laden silliness to my observation about the nature of the attack on monuments, so will people who still identify with the South be likely to respond in a similar manner.

You saying that the civil war was fought because "things were good for Southerners" just belies a lack of understanding of the entire affair. The war was actually fought because Lincoln decided that he wouldn't take secession lying down, and the Emancipation Proclamation only made because it was thought that it would be a boon to the Union in terms of winning the war. As much as some people like to paint the war as some great moral crusade against slavery, the truth is nowhere close. It's true that the expansion of slavery was a major flash point of contention between the states, and that it was a major issue of the day - but if the Confederacy hadn't taken the initiative to secede and shell Fort Sumter, its very possible that the sordid institution would still exist today.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
rhaikh #141476 08/29/17 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
Originally Posted by Derid
Unfortunately, many seem to have just decided, then and now, that they are all inherently bad people beyond enlightenment.


To your argument: How do statues of racists and slavers in their communities, schools and courthouses serve to enlighten these people?


A better question is what good will starting controversy about tearing them down serve.

The burden is actually on people who want to throw out the status quo.

Personally, I don't care whether the statues are there or not. It really doesn't matter to me. I just find the gross hypocrisy and actual motives of those stirring up the controversy as repulsive as they are counter-productive to actually improving life for anyone in the nation.

Jeff Sessions can hold a huge press conference with the FOP about re-starting the militarization of local police while congratulating them on the great job they do in minority communities, and tell them how being armed like a US Army Cavalry Division will help them continue to do it even more forcefully. Yet so many "progressives" simply want to gripe about hundred year old statues and how backwards and racist they are, and wonder "why can't people have some sympathy for people whose ancestry was caught up in the slave trade?"

Ridiculous.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141493 08/30/17 06:48 PM
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I am not optimistic about the future of Left. In the past, late 90s to early 2000s I took glee in pointing out that intellectual conservatism fell off couple exits prior. When TP rose, I could genuinely point to demagogy and outright ignorance on the right and say that at least we are better than that. This is no longer the case. Left's ideology has been hijacked by censorious, divisive attention seekers that care not for any of the core values. They would rather tear down random statues than tackle the problem of run-away wealth inequality.


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Sini #141510 09/01/17 07:44 AM
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You guys keep bringing up such irrelevant bullshit. It's incredibly disturbing how willing you guys are to defend Trump's talking points.

- Many of the statues were put up by WHITE SUPREMACISTS after the war was lost, who insisted on spreading their ideology in any way possible
- The statues and the ideology still exist today and these facts are related
- Rallies are being held by WHITE SUPREMACISTS to CREATE controversy over local governments quietly trying to align public monuments with modern ideology

The burden is on both of you to prove you are not sympathetic with their ideology in your defense of it.


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Sini #141511 09/01/17 07:52 AM
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Seriously, I don't often participate here because I know most of you are of the republican or libertarian persuasion and my voice will be drowned out. When it comes to single payer healthcare or whatever, I respect your differences. I was glad to see that most of you rejected Trump during his rise. But your alignment with Trump on this particular issue has me really disgusted to even be associated with you. This is a matter of respect for humanity and you are demonstrating incredible stretches of logic to avoid it.


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rhaikh #141514 09/01/17 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
The burden is on both of you to prove you are not sympathetic with their ideology in your defense of it.


Yep, rhaikh just went there.

If this is not a clear example of "with us or against us", I don't know what is. This is also why Trump has a chance to get reelected - unthinking tribalism allows demagogues exploit rifts. They don't even need to create these wedges - rahikh is perfectly happy to do the leg work for them. More so, this also normalizes white supremacy - more you misuse and stretch the definitions, less damning the label becomes.

You fail to consider implications of your stand, you are duplicating what Republicans were doing with RINO and TP, only with more toxic vitriol, and by doing so pushing people out of our tent. You might as well be working on Trump's reelection campaign.




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rhaikh #141519 09/02/17 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
But your alignment with Trump on this particular issue has me really disgusted to even be associated with you. This is a matter of respect for humanity and you are demonstrating incredible stretches of logic to avoid it.



This is exactly the type of thinking that makes me shake my head in despair for the future.

You even make my point by coming back around and saying it is about siding with/against Trump. Despite saying that I am stretching logic, no logic has been offered in rebuttal. Your only rebuttals thus far have been an appeal to pity, which is a clear logical fallacy. Just because bad things have happened to people does not mean that your particular thoughts on the matter are correct. What has been offered are attempts at shaming, which is neither logical nor convincing.

Especially considering that the impetus of everything I've said here has been towards simple prioritization, reason for the focus on the issue, and consideration for real ramifications. I offer examples of things that I think people should be caring about, and instead of thoughtful rebuttal or debate on the topic I get called a white supremacist that people should be disgusted to be associated with.

This is exactly the type of behavior I am thinking of when I mock the Coastal Left, and is in fact the type of thinking I chimed in to criticize. That I wrote here not in support of statues, but rather to criticize the SJW Left and end up getting called a white supremacist for it is justification in of itself for continuing criticism of the SJW Left.

It also represents a sense of haughty self-righteousness so strong that it transcends ideology and becomes faith. This is far more dangerous than a handful of actual white supremacist wingnuts showing up at some rally with tiki torches and stupid chants. Most death and destruction that can be found in the annals of human history that did not derive from simple conflicts over resources, can in fact be attributed to this type of unreflective faith in one's own moral authority - and in fact a great many simple conflicts for resources were in fact publicly justified along such lines.

I still remain convinced that your style of thinking and pernicious labeling is counter productive to any actual social gains, and your social prerogatives inferior in terms of benefit were they to be actualized.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
rhaikh #141520 09/02/17 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rhaikh
You guys keep bringing up such irrelevant bullshit. It's incredibly disturbing how willing you guys are to defend Trump's talking points.

- Many of the statues were put up by WHITE SUPREMACISTS after the war was lost, who insisted on spreading their ideology in any way possible
- The statues and the ideology still exist today and these facts are related
- Rallies are being held by WHITE SUPREMACISTS to CREATE controversy over local governments quietly trying to align public monuments with modern ideology

The burden is on both of you to prove you are not sympathetic with their ideology in your defense of it.


Seems odd that you don't even realize that allowing said local governments to deal with the issue on their own would have reflected some actual progress, and injecting the angry voices and violence of the SJW Left in an attempt to force the issue (and steal credit, where localities were quietly trying to change their public face) simply reframes the argument into an "us vs them" and "antifa fascist vs Trumpster fascist" shitfest.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #141521 09/02/17 05:48 PM
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Derid, for the record I condemn rhaikh behavior in this discussion. He doesn't speak for me or the left. Sadly, his behavior is not atypical these days and there is nothing I can do about idiotic SJWs other than repeatedly call them out.

Social Justice and their form of divisive relativism is the poison that will kill our society. You can't substitute reverse anything for actual problem solving. 27th century historians, studying the fall of American Empire, will conclude "they just gave up" and brought on dark ages. Actual cataclysm that would make the fall would be inconsequential.

Last edited by Sini; 09/03/17 07:09 AM.

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