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Sini #139351 12/20/16 02:27 PM
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But if people are genuinely afraid of the consequences of a simple election, isn't that a sure sign that the government has too much power?


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Sini #139352 12/20/16 03:13 PM
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People are afraid because there are a lot of regressive conservatives in control of every branch of our government. I wouldn't even say it is because they were properly voted in. Gerrymandering is a thing and it HEAVILY favors republican districts across this nation. If you can't win the game by the rules, you change the game or move the goal posts. That is what Republicans are very good at.

Last edited by Goriom; 12/20/16 03:14 PM.
Sini #139353 12/20/16 03:27 PM
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On the topic of gerrymandering: For gerrymandering to be a thing, at one point, Democrats had to have been in charge and districts had to have been drawn in their favor. For district boundaries to have changed, Democrats would have to had to have been voted out of those offices.

I think what actually happened is that the composition of voting districts changed to benefit Republicans, and that when they were redrawn, they were redrawn to more accurately reflect their current composition.

The gerrymandering complaint then boils down to a ineffective excuse to try to explain electoral failure. Given the collapse faced by Democrats in most states across the nation in the last eight years, that cannot all be due to gerrymandering. Democrats will have to come to grips with that if they ever wish to dig themselves out of the hole in which they currently find themselves.


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Owain #139357 12/20/16 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
But if people are genuinely afraid of the consequences of a simple election, isn't that a sure sign that the government has too much power?


Obviously. Though some who self-identify as leftists might not have come around to that realization yet.

Fear of Trump isn't solely the domain of Democrats either, but rather the domain of anyone who studies history and politics. Annoyingly enough, the Democrat mouthpieces usually get the specific reasons Trump should be feared so wrong, and do such a terrible job making the case against him. It is unfortunately true that left-leaning media exists in an equally bizzaro world as right wing media.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Goriom #139358 12/20/16 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Goriom
People are afraid because there are a lot of regressive conservatives in control of every branch of our government. I wouldn't even say it is because they were properly voted in. Gerrymandering is a thing and it HEAVILY favors republican districts across this nation. If you can't win the game by the rules, you change the game or move the goal posts. That is what Republicans are very good at.


Honestly Owain had a point on this topic, and it isn't like Democrats don't gerrymander when they are able, to the same degree. And I really wouldn't call the GOP conservatives, especially Trump - that does a disservice to conservatives.

Sure, you could get into "no true Scotsman" arguments, but really, Trump is about as conservative - in the traditional USA sense - as Mussolini.

On a side note, I've been playing as Trump.... er... Mussolini in Heart of Iron IV, having picked it and the expansion up a couple days ago during a Steam sale. Really cool game.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #139359 12/20/16 04:55 PM
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Fear of Trump among establishment Republicans comes from those worried that he will end up breaking their rice bowl, so to speak. Trump may not respect their cushy establishment compromise deals.

People fear change, particularly when it threatens their self interest.


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Derid #139361 12/20/16 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Owain
But if people are genuinely afraid of the consequences of a simple election, isn't that a sure sign that the government has too much power?


Obviously. Though some who self-identify as leftists might not have come around to that realization yet.

In my experience, those on the left are just fine with having too much power concentrated in government because they think the use of that power will always be to their benefit.

I want to remove much of the power accessible to both the right and the left, because power is inevitably abused no matter who wields it.

Enormous power begets enormous abuse. There will still be abuses under governments with limited power, but the damage and the abuse will be equally limited.

The same thing happens with corruption. Large government = large amounts of corruption. Small government at least limits the opportunities for corruption that fallible human beings find irresistible.

Last edited by Owain; 12/20/16 05:09 PM.

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Sini #139372 12/20/16 08:51 PM
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Small government just creates power vacuum. Substituting profiteering corporations instead of corrupt government is not in any way will lead to improvement.


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Sini #139373 12/20/16 09:28 PM
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Corporations only profit if they supply useful goods or services to people at prices they are willing to pay.

The fiends.


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Sini #139378 12/21/16 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sini
Small government just creates power vacuum. Substituting profiteering corporations instead of corrupt government is not in any way will lead to improvement.


That argument might make more sense if Goldman Sachs and Exxon Mobil weren't about to start leveraging the power of govt directly, for the benefit of their own market outcomes, at the expense of everyone else. (again)

Seriously though, there is a difference between limited govt and weak govt. The problem is the current lack of discernment between things govt should and shouldn't do, and how it should and shouldn't do them. Lack of philosophical underpinnings and practically unlimited power results in govt doing either a) whatever "sounds good" at the moment, and can be sold to the public - or b) whatever various people in govt can get away with when "no ones looking" or in a position to stop them.

Theres plenty of things govt should be doing. I'd rather focus on those things, and do them well.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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