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Sini #139321 12/17/16 02:08 AM
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It is obvious that the #NeverTrump folks failed to exercise influence, otherwise Trump would never have been nominated as easily as he was. Their arrogance in condemning Trump supporters was still a factor in energizing those supporters, as was Hillary's stupid 'deplorable' comment directed at millions of voters she needed to attract to win the election.

So of course, failed political tactics are ineffective, but unless people want to perpetuate failure and defeat, they need to recognize and accept responsibility for their failures, and be willing to change.

What I am seeing instead on both sides, (but most often on the left) are people doubling down on the very mistakes that contributed to their failure in the first place.

With Democrats, that behavior is what has led to their historic electoral collapse at all levels across the country over the last eight years in most states.



Last edited by Owain; 12/17/16 08:02 AM.

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Owain #139323 12/17/16 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
It is obvious that the #NeverTrump folks failed to exercise influence, otherwise Trump would never have been nominated as easily as he was. Their arrogance in condemning Trump supporters was still a factor in energizing those supporters, as was Hillary's stupid 'deplorable' comment directed at millions of voters she needed to attract to win the election.

So of course, failed political tactics are ineffective, but unless people want to perpetuate failure and defeat, they need to recognize and accept responsibility for their failures, and be willing to change.

What I am seeing instead on both sides, (but most often on the left) are people doubling down on the very mistakes that contributed to their failure in the first place.

With Democrats, that behavior is what has led to their historic electoral collapse at all levels across the country over the last eight years in most states.




I wouldn't call Trumps nomination easy, and #NeverTrump didn't really gain steam until he already looked likely to win.

As far as the Democrats, I do agree with you on that. I've been saying much the same for a while. Nevermind the FedGov, if they continue at their current speed, they will lose enough statehouses for the GOP to be able call a Constitutional Convention. Even if you look at their House representation, it is easy to see that they are basically the party of NY and CA, and exist primarily to spew identity politics and collect donations from wealthy coastal donors. They also lack principles, and thus, lost the last election to the bigger showman.

That they have kept the same leadership (and forget the DNC, Pelosi is the real party leader) shows they aren't even serious. They will just work off Trump's actions to rile up their base and collect funds, and probably fail again, unless Trump trips on a Rust Belt third rail.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #139327 12/17/16 06:46 PM
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It was certainly far more easy for Trump than it was for any other candidate in the Republican field. They all dropped out fairly quickly when it became obvious they would not prevail.

I remember being shocked and dismayed when Ted Cruz dropped out. I thought it was a premature decision, but he probably was far more informed on the grim realities of the situation that was I.


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Sini #139342 12/19/16 07:01 PM
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Interestingly, Clinton had more faithless electors than Trump.


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Sini #139343 12/19/16 07:11 PM
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Voters already have put Democrats out of office in historic numbers in the last 8 years. I can't imagine they will regard this failed move by Democrats to subvert the electoral process with favor in elections come.


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Owain #139344 12/20/16 12:58 AM
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I am embarrassed to say that the left has gotten complacent and lazy. We are going to have to wake up if we are ever going to return to power. Trump may be just what we need to wake us up.

Time will tell.


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Sini #139345 12/20/16 01:01 AM
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I wouldn't say anyone tried to subvert the process, electors voting is the process. It would have been nice if they'd dumped Trump, but I sure wasn't expecting US politicians to grow anything resembling a backbone.

On the bright side, as long as Trump doesn't manage to totally fuck up - as in fuck up on the societal death level, there are some upsides.

Namely, I think some progressives are going to become a lot more libertarian minded when they really internalize the fact that history is not, in fact, over. For every bit of "progress" they made using the power of the Federal govt, and the Presidency in particular, they will see that same power turned 180degrees in the opposite direction. Maybe some of them will see and understand how using heavy handed statist tactics can spectacularly backfire as soon as a bad news cycle coincides with a bad political cycle.

Maybe, as civil order continues to decay, and fringe extremism rises and starts taking its toll on minorities, all while civil institutions flounder and decay, they will realize again that history is not fucking over - and that long periods of social stability are historically infrequent, and having an ipod and an automobile doesn't make them any better than their predecessors. Maybe they will be even thankful that they can still buy a gun if they need to.

But nah, they will probably just blame the Russians and put on a brown shirt.


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Sini #139346 12/20/16 06:31 AM
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Calling for electors to violate their trust and oppose the will of the voters of their respective states because Democrats are suffering from advanced butt hurt sure sounds like an attempt to subvert the electoral process to me.

Hysterically, more electors abandoned Hillary than any other candidate in 150 years.

I guess that is what "voting your conscience" looks like.


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Sini #139348 12/20/16 11:42 AM
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People are genuinely worried about a Trump govt. Hillary didn't actually support the Hamilton movement, though I do find it funny she lost electors - I think they were mostly just encouraging the GOP electors to defect though.

Had Trump not reached 270, it would have gone to the House. There is a process, and it's not like Trump was actually preferred by a majority of voters anyhow - even as things stand, let alone had people felt there were more viable options.

It would have been rather interesting to see the election fall to the House, and it might have shook things up a bit.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #139350 12/20/16 01:25 PM
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"People are genuinely worried about a Trump govt."

This is what comes from Democrats believing their own propaganda. He'll do fine.


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