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Sini #139309 12/16/16 02:14 PM
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I haven't been paying much attention to the political forum before, so I don't know anything about that.

In all things, we have to wait to see what actually happens before judgement can be rendered. Probably 95% of the things people worry about never come to pass, which is why one should never take counsel of their fears.

What exactly do you fear and what justification do you have to fear that. Specifically.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

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Owain #139310 12/16/16 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Owain
Quote:
If we continue trotting out the worst our species has to offer, expect our social conditions to continue worsening.


This is most certainly not true. If this is what you actually believe, then as Yoda might say, "That is why you failed."


So on one hand, we had a corrupt pol who was bad at every job she ever had, whose claim to fame was leveraging her husband's connections to raise big money and get media access.

On the other hand, we have a reality TV star with the gravitas of a circus clown and the attention span of a gerbil who has no philosophical underpinnings or moral fiber, and is demonstrably a pathological liar. His money is about where it should be, given average rate of return on his inheritance.

So which part of my statement do you disagree with, that they are garbage people, or that having them at the top of our govt will result in worsening of our social state?

People are imperfect beings. What matters are the policies that will result from Trump's administration. Policies endure long after individuals leave office. Regardless of Trump's personal qualities, I am of the opinion that he will enact effective policies. That is all I am interested in.

Joe Biden is an embarrassing buffoon, but that is not why I opposed the Obama administration. I opposed the Obama administration based upon its failed policies. By itself, my opposition doesn't mean much, but collectively, the voters thought so as well, which resulted in Trump's election.

Trump will be reelected, or not, based primarily upon the policies he enacts and the success or failure of those policies, not upon his personality.


While I think having faith in Trump's policies and approach to govt is certainly naive, I can at least say that the point I have been making here doesn't apply to you. Like I said already, if you truly support Hillary Trumpkin, then that's one thing. My original comment was directed at someone who I don't think actually does support Trump, and did so mostly due to fear of Hillary.

If you support Trump, fine. If you don't, then voting for him regardless is the issue at question.

Since you claim to actively support Trump, then my point doesn't apply to you. That is a different topic altogether. I do wonder what Trump supporters actually stand for, since Trump doesn't seem to stand for much of anything, but again, a different topic altogether.

I do see why some might have supported him pre-election, with his promises to drain the swamp and such. But as we have already seen, when he said "drain the swamp," he meant drain it into the White House, which seems somehow different that what most of his supporters probably thought he meant. So ongoing support is something I do find puzzling.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #139311 12/16/16 02:26 PM
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If someone actively opposed Hillary first and foremost, why would voting for Trump be a bad idea if they felt that was their best option to ensure that she was not elected?


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Owain #139312 12/16/16 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
I haven't been paying much attention to the political forum before, so I don't know anything about that.

In all things, we have to wait to see what actually happens before judgement can be rendered. Probably 95% of the things people worry about never come to pass, which is why one should never take counsel of their fears.

What exactly do you fear and what justification do you have to fear that. Specifically.


Referring to the past, I was thinking of discussions we had (you and I, among others) about various topics - from the looming Iraq war, to the way we were financing govt, and the wisdom (or lack thereof) or massive deficit spending, and of artificially flooring interest rates while printing money in order to service said debts which led directly to the bubble, and housing crisis. Though to be fair, although I specifically said that the policies and massive excess of free capital would result in a bubble that would create a massive financial dislocation somewhere, I was unable to predict at the time exactly where, and said as much. Seeing a massive pipe pouring millions of gallons per second makes it easy to predict a flood, knowing exactly where the runoff will land is quite a bit harder. (With Vydor, on this topic, for the most part)

For one specific example, I recall a discussion you and I had, where I warned of the collateral carnage the Iraq war effort would bring, and amidst the Cheney jingoistic hubris of the time, how we needed to approach the prospect of war with both eyes open. (and how we would not be seen as heroic liberators, for that matter) You replied that US Pilots and such took great pains to avoid collateral damage, act responsibly - which I granted as true, but was not the primary issue I was trying to touch upon. Of course we now know of the massive civilian death tolls due to our intervention there. Just as one example.

This was prior to even having political topics sequestered to a specific forum, actually. But in any case.

Unfortunately, a lot more than 5% of my fears do come to pass, politically and financially speaking.

--

As far as Trump specifically, there are enough concerns to fill a large tome.

The first and foremost being a complete disregard for Constitutionally granted individual rights, and the rule of law itself. Compounding this lack, is the lack of any cohesive political worldview at all - instead, replaced by a narcissistic need for self-gratification via showboating.

In similar vein, Trump has a great faith in his own capability, and seems unwilling to acknowledge issues that might be beyond him, or anyone. But, given his history, he seems unlikely to care about anything other than being able to stand behind a podium and spin out a claim of victory. I mean, he talked up his defunct packaged steak business while campaigning - replete with sticking a fake label on a different brand of steak. The man is simply a walking, talking absurdity.

Trump has specifically spoken out against due process, and in favor of "watch lists"

He has specifically spoken out against First Amendment rights on multiple occasions.

He advocated building a wall on the Mexican border. Which not only addresses the wrong problems, but is absurd in of itself. Israel is one of the most militarized states in the world, and cannot even keep people from trafficking around and under their walls, which are heavily guarded and monitored with sensitive equipment. As if a several thousand mile wall could or would do anything. In short, a silly suggestion befitting a silly person.

His cabinet picks thus far have been a whos-who of some of the worst actors - particularly Goldman Sachs, which thrives entirely due to cronyism between Federal and psuedo-Federal institutions. His picks thus far are not pro-market, but rather pro-certain-businesses.

Much like most of W's tenure, where W knew or cared little about much of what his cabinet was doing, so too does Trump seem primed to sit back and talk up a spiel while his govt acts entirely in the interests of their various cronies, to the detriment of the rest of us.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Owain #139313 12/16/16 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
If someone actively opposed Hillary first and foremost, why would voting for Trump be a bad idea if they felt that was their best option to ensure that she was not elected?


See preceding posts regarding demanding better. Its about looking to the future, knowing that the present is fated to be fetid, regardless of whether it is a blue or red strain of garbage.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Sini #139314 12/16/16 03:20 PM
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You have a better memory than I, but that isn't a high bar.

To my knowledge most of what Trump proposes involves enforcing existing laws,which us fine by me. If he proposes something that is actually improper I will oppose that, as i expect Congress will as well, just as I opposed Obama's unconstitutional violation of freedom of expression of religious freedoms, persecution of political opponents with the IRS, spying on journalists and citizens with the NSA, and his refusal to enforce existing immigration laws.

Were you equally critical of Obama's transgressions?


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Derid #139315 12/16/16 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Owain
If someone actively opposed Hillary first and foremost, why would voting for Trump be a bad idea if they felt that was their best option to ensure that she was not elected?


See preceding posts regarding demanding better. Its about looking to the future, knowing that the present is fated to be fetid, regardless of whether it is a blue or red strain of garbage.


All of which are your personal opinions, which do nothing to invalidate the decisions of everyone who voted for Trump for whatever reason. In fact, it is likely that a large contributing factor in Trump's election was the arrogance of of both liberals and #NeverTrump folks who felt they knew better than anyone else, and like Hillary, felt that anyone who disagreed with them were deplorable, and irredeemable.

This is a state of mind that both Democrats and Republicans (thinking mostly of #NeverTrump folks here) need to eliminate, because if there ever was a failed strategy that absolutely needs to be eliminated, this is the one.

The very fact that Trump won is evidence of the failure inherent with this approach.


To the everlasting glory of the infantry...

Owain ab Arawn
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Owain #139317 12/16/16 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
You have a better memory than I, but that isn't a high bar.

To my knowledge most of what Trump proposes involves enforcing existing laws,which us fine by me. If he proposes something that is actually improper I will oppose that, as i expect Congress will as well, just as I opposed Obama's unconstitutional violation of freedom of expression of religious freedoms, persecution of political opponents with the IRS, spying on journalists and citizens with the NSA, and his refusal to enforce existing immigration laws.

Were you equally critical of Obama's transgressions?


Yeah, I was extremely critical of Obama.

I think anyone who has frequented the discussion here in recent years can vouch for that.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Owain #139318 12/16/16 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Owain
Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: Owain
If someone actively opposed Hillary first and foremost, why would voting for Trump be a bad idea if they felt that was their best option to ensure that she was not elected?


See preceding posts regarding demanding better. Its about looking to the future, knowing that the present is fated to be fetid, regardless of whether it is a blue or red strain of garbage.


All of which are your personal opinions, which do nothing to invalidate the decisions of everyone who voted for Trump for whatever reason. In fact, it is likely that a large contributing factor in Trump's election was the arrogance of of both liberals and #NeverTrump folks who felt they knew better than anyone else, and like Hillary, felt that anyone who disagreed with them were deplorable, and irredeemable.

This is a state of mind that both Democrats and Republicans (thinking mostly of #NeverTrump folks here) need to eliminate, because if there ever was a failed strategy that absolutely needs to be eliminated, this is the one.

The very fact that Trump won is evidence of the failure inherent with this approach.


I don't think #NeverTrump had much influence, though I have discussed the effects of liberal arrogance and PC culture earlier in this very thread, and was the first to do so. (If I recall correctly, and even partially transcribed the discussion between Bill Maher and Trey Crowder, which I thought encapsulated the concept)

The fact that Johnson's votes covered the swing state spread sufficiently, despite the prevalence of your type of party thinking in the electorate, is in fact sufficient evidence that voting for neither Hillary nor Trump is worth something, and was not a failed strategy. There is now a quantifiable voting bloc that has the power to swing elections, that isn't failure. Conversely, it is something to build upon as the party establishments continue to fail.

Last edited by Derid; 12/16/16 04:44 PM.

For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
Goriom #139319 12/16/16 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Goriom


This video is totally worth watching.


It's not a bad video, but makes an error where it says "third party voters hurt themselves"

As things stand, third party voters know quite well that their candidate will not "win"

If someone votes third party, it's usually because the two major parties have drifted so far into insanity that they can't in good conscience vote for them, but still feel a civic obligation to vote. True believers are rare.

I do agree that proportional representation is needed, particularly in the House. But, well, good luck with that. Queen Lion doesn't control the electoral rules, Leopard and Gorilla do - and aren't about to make any changes.


For who could be free when every other man's humour might domineer over him? - John Locke (2nd Treatise, sect 57)
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