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Quote:
This is a pretty good summation, its only mistake is that it is known (and common sense) that bans on guns with certain cosmetic features would not impact crime.


I agree with you here, I think limitation on WHAT is not a very effective approach. By far better approach is limiting WHO. I don't think you'd disagree that certain kinds of people who currently have access should not be allowed access to guns. Unfortunately this approach is a political dead-end due to "take away our guns" hysteria.

So question remains - are limitation on clips effective or not? If I had to guess - I'd say marginal at best.

Safe storage laws? I think this is good idea. You keep reading about kids dying to unsecured guns all the time. Why is this even controversial?

Universal background check. Why is this even controversial? This is necessary to enforce existing guns laws, or do you think they shouldn't be enforced?

Quote:
if guns werent available someone bent on making headline news by causing mass carnage can look to any number of other extremely easy means and methods - from homemade bombs to hijacking a fuel truck at a gas station to simply grabbing a beater car and playing crazy taxi IRL.


Are these methods as easy to implement, and more importantly as deadly? Sure, crazies will do crazy things, but when one goes on a stabbing spree in China casualty toll is much lower.

Last edited by sini; 02/06/13 10:02 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Daye
"Property, no. Breaking into a home...absolutely."

I like this guy reasoning more: http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/killing-over-stuff/


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Cars arent quite as available in China. They are also typically smaller. Here in the US, you can wander around a few minutes and find at least one 2-ton SUV with 300HP that is relatively unsecured.

Plus China is a poor example, we have no idea what level of crazy exists there - they keep things hush-hush. Except of course, for the govt-conducted crazy. China is actually the second strongest argument on the planet *for the second amendment, after North Korea.

When it comes to background checks and such, it depends on how its conducted, and who manages it. Plus that and "safe storage" open up all sorts of legal issues that could be used to persecute lawful people.

The country did fine for two centuries without any of this crap, and the guns available had not substantially changed in lethality or capacity for at least one century. (Auto weapons were effectively banned- with some caveats - back in the teens).

If you want to look for what went wrong, look elsewhere than availability of weapons. The whole topic is a red herring.


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Originally Posted By: Arkh
Originally Posted By: Daye
"Property, no. Breaking into a home...absolutely."

I like this guy reasoning more: http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/killing-over-stuff/


I wouldn't kill over 30$ (or $300 or $3000). I would kill over defending myself from the armed muggers.

Self-defense is one of the few valid applications of a firearm. It is also less frequent that use for crime.


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Originally Posted By: Derid

The country did fine for two centuries without any of this crap, and the guns available had not substantially changed in lethality or capacity for at least one century.


Wrong. Gun murders in the US easily 10x other first-world countries. While everyone else evolved and improved, we are still at 1900-level of gun crime.


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Originally Posted By: sini
How do you establish criminal intent after intruder was shot dead on sight?
They are in your house.

Originally Posted By: sini
I wouldn't kill over 30$ (or $300 or $3000). I would kill over defending myself from the armed muggers.
The problem is, when someone has broken into your home you don't know if they are after your stuff or your life. You have to assume the worst or risk death.

Originally Posted By: sini
Self-defense is one of the few valid applications of a firearm. It is also less frequent that use for crime.
You cannot accurately make that claim as there are vastly fewer legitimate statistics for crime preventative use of a firearm. Many times using a firearm to prevent a crime doesn't even get reported.


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The fact that you can even claim "vastly fewer legitimate statistics" is a direct result of NRA lobbying.


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Originally Posted By: sini
The fact that you can even claim "vastly fewer legitimate statistics" is a direct result of NRA lobbying.
foil


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Not much difference in sitting in a dark basement or sleeping in a dark
bedroom when the event unfolds. Besides, you're working from what the
prosecution is claiming happened. I highly doubt the guy sits up every
night waiting for someone to break in laying on his living room floor
in a ghillie suit :|

Make no mistake, there are at least TWO firearms in my bedroom.
Both loaded and ready to go.

Any entry to my home will trigger the alarm. Within 2-3 seconds I will be up,
armed and begin room clearing. My other half will stay in the bedroom with
instructions to shoot anyone that enters the bedroom other than myself.

Anyone I encounter will likely get shot at least twice with no warning.
I don't care if they're obviously armed or not. I don't care what their
intentions are.

If a target goes down I will move to the next target and repeat. If the
downed target still poses a threat, they will likely be shot again until
that threat is gone.


While the police will already be enroute due to the alarm, my other half
will be calling them anyway to make sure they announce their presense prior
to entering the home. ( for their safety and mine )

Last edited by Daye; 02/07/13 02:27 PM.
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Originally Posted By: sini


I wouldn't kill over 30$ (or $300 or $3000). I would kill over defending
myself from the armed muggers.

Self-defense is one of the few valid applications of a firearm. It is also
less frequent that use for crime.


Chuckle. So as long as they're not (obviously) armed, they can beat the
hell out of you without fear of putting their own life at risk ? How does
your theory work when you face off with several of them ? Or when one
realizes you can identify them later on ?

You're completely ok with simply handing over everything you worked for to
anyone who might use force to take it from you ?

Why yes, here are my keys, wallet and phone. Within you'll find my home
address, keys to the house and car and all sorts of private info on me in
the phone. Even photos of my family in case you wish to pay them a visit
too. I look forward to seeing you or your friends at my home sometime
in the near future. Of course that's my debit card in my wallet. Let's
drive to the nearest ATM so I can withdraw the max limit for you this
evening.

If so, that attitude is what enables today's criminals. I call it the
" Take anything you want just don't hurt me " defense. :|


Sinij: I come from a family who is mostly law enforcement. I have been
(un)fortunate enough to see just how evil folks can be towards one another
for most of my life. As a result, I don't see the world through the same
rose colored glasses that you do. You're delusional if you think removing
scary looking firearms from the equation will solve or even help the problem
of human violence.

We've been killing each other for millennia, most of which without firearms.
As a species, we've become pretty damned good at it I think.




Last edited by Daye; 02/07/13 02:58 PM.
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