Here's the Updated Master list for those interested:

Nethervoid
Arkh
Arjuna (Aureliano)
Taco Salad (rhaikh)
Syloc
John Xao

**

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING! Duck!

A couple months into Darkfall, and I've got to say, I’m having a blast; however the logistics of practicing, getting better, and mastering pvp has, to be frank, become a hard aspect to participate in. Not everyone logs on at the same time, others have less play time than others, and almost everyone is so poor, they can't afford to throw away those 300 arrows or that plate set just to have some good action. There are some, like me, that don't log on when the majority of KGB logs on, so I'm really left by the wayside during the weekdays, even though I log on a lot of hours. My initial experiment of going out every other day to gank dutchy was a bust. You just lose too much biting off more than you can chew, chasing dutchy for hours and, to be frank, there're aspects of my game that frankly suck. (My 1h vs 2hers)

Thusly, I propose what will, not doubt, be the first of many of my idiotic ideas KGB has to endure ... Fight Club.




The premise: a list on the oracle forums of people interested in doing spontaneous 1v1s or 2v2s.

So if, for instance, nothing's going on and I don't feel like farming mobs, but I don't want to risk my last plate set pvping alone in Dutchy, I can look on the list, and do 1v1s or 2v2s. Your first pvp experience shouldn’t have to be facing a full group of SN, waiting around for hours for a siege, or getting naked ganked at our own bank – instead, it should be of your own choosing.

The objective is simple; get people thinking about how they play, because, to be frank, this isn't a turret game - it DOES take a little bit of "fps" skill to be better at this game.





Where this has worked: Although this may not apply to darkfall, because this is an MMO, but this has worked in my FPS clans of the past. If someone, say a member in one of my Quake Clans, can’t bunny hop properly; I’d jump into a server with him, talk him through the motions, and see how it works. In my ETQW clan, some of our newer members’ aim just wasn’t up to par to compete at the highest level, so we would do 3 v 3s with just guns, giving them tips, or seeing if we could do better. The rules would be simple; check your ego at the door, and the objective isn’t to show how much better you are, but get everyone as good as the best player.

I never tried this in Shadowbane because, to be frank, all we needed to know was how to type /tar [first three letters of the name] and you learned focus fire – even after they took out target, it was preety cut and dry, hit nearest target and fire, so even that was simple.

In Darkfall, there’s a simple list of things I need to work on – 1v1ing versus archers at medium range, 1v1ing versus 2h swords with my 1h sword (if it’s possible), kiting plate players, and do the 180 jump shot I’ve seen players do. There’s buttloads more than can be experimented on, and the skys the limit. As always, this wouldn’t be an all the time thing, and this isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. 90% of the time, we’ll be doing farming groups, doing pvp raids and sieges.

However, if your like me, have your skills up high enough that you don’t have to hardcore grind anymore; and want to improve your own pvp skills without having to risk 2 hours of farming each time, then this is a good idea.

Overall, I think the best thing about this is that it opens up people talking about pvp, how to get better, and experimenting and helping those that think they suck in pvp, to actually get better. This is a new game, and even though you think you’re a pve player, your probably better than you think.

**

I don’t know if I’m alone here, but if this sounds like a good idea, go ahead and you’re your thoughts below. This could be a dumb idea, and if it is, just say so … but, in my experience, it was those clans that went the extra mile, and tried new things that no one was doing … that had the most success.

This should never have been a formal thing, but I just don't know who'd be interested in this kind of thing, hell, maybe later, we could hold a real tourney, and people would be prepared.

-Syloc deKGB.

P.S. The first rule of fight club is to talk about fight club! keke

Sounds good to me. I haven't played a lot of FPS games, so my twitch skills are pretty horrible. That and I need more time actually fighting, so my actions become more instictual.

Count me in. I need to practise using my new spells and staying buffed during a whole fight.

This is absolutely the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

J/K

I like it and I'm in. I definitely need to learn how to pvp archers...mages...people with shields...pretty much everyone.

There is no such thing as a bad idea, however I feel that the Champion program was implimented with the same spirit, and that all one really need do is go into chan and gather up those looking for a fight. While my connection is bad at this time, I still was in game last night with nothing but a leaf blade, and I heard the call to run down two interlopers. I ran out and answered that call when there were many in town who just stood there, granted many were probably afk macroing, however my point is that all one needs do is find where the fight is and join it. I put hits down with my leaf blade, end of story

I feel that responding to gankers will NOT help you in real pvp, because half the time, your not getting a square up fight and/or they just run you to death. But, when you face people in the field during a siege, or versus an organized group, people are wearing full plate or banded, and they stop and fight. Not to mention, we don't get that many gankers that actually want to fight, most of the time they just run away. I feel it's being more proactive than reactive, by setting up 1v1s.

I see your point, sure it can't hurt, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I was never the type to do Scenarioes before level 40 in WAR, and even in DAOC, i'd rather grind my way up to the top level rather than waste my times in bgs; but there's something about Darkfall that's different.

I've seen certain players take on 2v1 and win every time, or some jackass that would do the jump-shot thing and hit every time. Conversely, i've seen people fail at the jump-shot thing; run around like their head cut off, and run when they should of stood and fight.

And there's no substitute for real game experience, hitting moving targets is different than hitting a mob that, most of the time, runs in straight lines, at least imho.

That, and I don't get excited by PVE, so I need to fill my mind with something worthwhile. In shadowbane, it was creating spec groups and finding templates, in Darkfall, I'm still lookin ghehe.

I don't have a ton of time to elaborate but the 1h w/ shield vs 2h made me think about something I'd like to drill into people...

Darkfall is a game of attrition. It is NOT a rush, do as much dmg as you can game. You MUST ave patience to be any good at PVP in DFO.

For instance: I win almost every 2v1 I get into in open field because they come at me hard and fast. Parry is incredibly overpowered. I can make them do almost NO dmg to me while they waste their stamina swinging at me. I also have good twitch reflexes so I hit 2h people right after I parry them since 1h weapons swing fast. I have high elemental skills as well as decent archery skills. I have alot of weapons at my disposal..but MOST of all, I PVP ALOT do I know what to do in different situations. I lost ALOT of gear learning these hard lessons, and some of you will too, but it's just pixels.

Go out, follow orders, loose sometimes, win sometimes, and you get better.

Patience is a virtue. Win DFO by using attrition to you advantage.

I'd totally agree with your assessment, because, rushing without any thought into it, just won't win the war; simply because of the fact EVERYONE is kiting/baiting you in this game.

Especially those who think just because groups run away and don't engage unless they have numbers; that doesn't make them cowards, that makes them smart. Why rush when you know the enemy will chase and lose their stam?

Especially in 1v1s, there's simple things that can improve your game ...

for instance, you should be popping mana to stam at every spare moment you have, cause it only takes a couple seconds to switch to your staff, pop mana to stam, then back to your weapon - even if you're not low on stam

or

keeping two mounts when pvping (if you can afford it) etc etc etc

The list of tips goes on and on and better told to a person than read.

Like Dunlop I have lost ALOT of armor, all of which i personally farmed for, learning these mistakes, and i've realized a lot of this can just be done in 1v1s, 2v2s etc ... without having to go through the painful experience of losing just days of armor over and over like I have done.

yep, I need tons of practice and I am finally over the greater magic grind.. so I am down for sparring in Khosgar if you see me hanging out.

I am going to avoid putting up another wall of text.

The west side of Khosgar could be a great place for 1v1 2v2 3v3 or whatever.

One of the first things I say before our group goes into a fight is your number one job is staying alive. Let me elaborate. Many times players get strung out from the core group and once separated are susceptible to ganging by the enemy. It's important to stay "near" the pack and avoid this. If you start taking more damage or have multiple enemies on you - your first response is to PARRY not turning your back. Do make short runs around objects to create Line of Sight problems for your attacker while you are moving back to the group.

Another element of battle that we all need to work on is our battlefield awareness. We often speak of this and it is important to know what is going on around you. Eyes open scan players around you, look for low enemies and mounts. One tip for this is to maximize the size of your minimap so you know where your group/clan members are with a glance.

Talk often in vent in fights about enemies etc not your parakeet's pile of doodoo looking like the UO logo.

After the fight talk about the fun stuff and discuss what you did that worked or didn't work. DO NOT epene because you died or lost a mount or thought you should have logged off to watch Gilligan's Island instead of pvping. It's counter productive to bitch and bitch and bitch in vent it makes you look like a bitch.

I have started chatting a bit with group members about fighting tactics and what I could have done better (notice my comment - I am seeking input on what THEY think I could have done better - my purpose is to get constructive criticism to improve my skills period - if they ask me I will give them feedback as well).

Before you go into battle be prepared to fight to the death for the sake of the fun of the fight. If you are worried about your gear or grass pixels you are already half defeated - the outcome of every fight I go into is they die or I die. If I am not fully committed to fighting to the death and they are I will lose more often than I win.

In the last couple of days I have looted 5-6 full suits of armor and 4 or more mounts from 2v2 3v3 2v4 that I won.

One last thing is City Defense - if someone calls for help EVERYONE who can should run out and get involved, seriously we have had some great fights lately from this, the 2 v4 that Darka and I got into with 4 fully geared enemies was extremely fun expecially when we both looted 2 dead enemies.

Ryu and Ken were trying to farm birds yesterday when they got caught with low stam by a couple of enemies, I was naked headed out to gather and decided to grab a mount, sword and board and run out to see if I could help with runners. I got there just after Ryu was taken down and Ken was fighting 2. I killed one and jumped the 2nd with Ken. We easily killed the 2nd and neither lost any gear - but without any stam or help Ken would not have lasted against the 2 enemies. If I had just ignored them and ran out to the herb bushes they would both have died without any help.

Don't put blinders on when you are in town we are getting some good fights and experience we can use later by responding to pleas for help.

/fuck wall of text - sorry

Wait just a god damn minute here Hare. How is my parakeet's shit not relevant to pvp? It just so happens that after a tremendous amount of time studying the poop, I had a dream that revealed a archer/dagger combo that is unstoppable.

Combat is about staying alive, Hare is 100% right; however in my experience the first thing you've got to realize is your weaknesses and strengths. Running away when your low on stam is NOT cowardly, it's a tactic, and even though you may see other gankers that don't fight when they're outnumbered and it may seem cowardly to you, it probably isn't.

Although I would agree we should ALWAYS respond to gankers if close to the city, I would hesitate to rely on this to get better in pvp; because, lets face it, your just responding to gankers that are in enemy territory and most of the time you have the advantage of numbers.

Dunlop and Hare have been organizating groups for raiding (and since i'm PST I can never get in them unfortunatly) and I think that does 10x more for your skill in combat than waiting for gankers ever will. You have to take the initative, and realize that gear, while cool, isn't the name of the game.

Yesterday, Arjuna and I were dukeing it out - and while we didn't actually gain any gold or gear, I would able to work on my aim alittle, get a little bit used to the jump shot, and then get raped by Runo's Run and Gun Magic Missle a little.

Be PROACTIVE, not reactive. Waiting for pvp is the best way to NOT get good at pvp. Go with Hare and Dunlop the next time they go out, or join us in duels during the evenings in 1v1s or 2v2s when I'm asking in vent, or hell, even go out by yourself.

In UO, KGB used to train and have scrimmages versus veterans and new guys, being proactive about their battle skills rather than just fighting random newbs, so they could win against the best not the worst. (At least that's what i've read and what people have told me)

There's no reason it can't work in DFO too.

Syloc - I think you are making a point about a tactical retreat from battle. You are 100% correct here but that is not my point in saying be prepared to fight to the death.

We don't necessarily want to fight to the death but I am invoking the spirit of the fight. If you go in without the full commitment to winning the fight or losing everything you are wearing it lessen your chance of winning the fight. The leaders talk about this all the time and its a reality.

Thank you for pointing out the value of a tactical retreat and the focus of my post.

You know something that's been nagging around in my head is something that I saw SN do a couple of nights ago, and that is, concentrate focus fire on targets that overextend past their line, i.e. a 2h user who's hitting on a person that's parrying.

I think my thought process at this point, is to develop an easy and effective way to introduce people into pvp combat without having to force them to lose sets upon sets of armor, not out of some sort of attachment I have to armor, just the inefficency of that process.

My going theory, at least at this point, is if we can train/develop people to be good at 1v1,2v2, etc etc and different situtations, (1v2, 2v3, etc) the transition into group play will be that much more effective.

So far, nothing teaches you more about staying alive than doing a 1v1 or 1v2. Little tricks like memorizing the key strokes that allows me to hit mana to stam then switch back to my bow within 2-3 seconds, has saved me more than once.

At the very least, practicing archery aim versus real targets, can be achieved through this method.

Hare, I'm preety sure we're talking about the same focal points of combat - and at this point it's more about execution and practice rather than theory.

Thanks for clarifying. Thoughts are abound! It's about time we got everyone on the same page.

Best way to learn pvp is to go out on offensives, heed the call for defensives, and spar. Do all of them.

I don't agree there's never a good time for retreat. Sometimes you should not retreat; other times you'd be dumb not to. Often times what you need to do is simply mount up to regroup, or change the terrain. If a 10v10 turns into a 2v8, mount up and save what you've got for the next fight. It's dumb to just stand there and die.

This happened to a group I was in about a week ago I think. We were fighting Serenity Now (that time when Ky Ky hit Darka like 9 times in 3 seconds with a bow while he was mounted at extreme range lol). It started as 10 KGB vs 8 SN or something like that. I was the only guy left because when the fight turned into 2 v ~6 and we were split by a screen, I mounted and barely got away. I used that mount and armor in the next fight.

I have only ever looted a geared dude in PvP 1 time, so all my gear and mounts are self farmed. ~ 3 hours of farming per go bag. When the battle is going south, I'd rather save 3 hours of farming. So while I think some people are looting full sets of gear and don't really need to farm much, others of us are farming quite often to keep it up, which is the reason I'd rather stay alive if the fight goes south pretty bad. This is mainly for armor, mounts, and arrows.

KGB needs some kind of gear reimbursement program for official pvp [not responces to pks]. This really helps get more people involved and aggressive. It worked really well in EVE. Or hell even just a mount reimbursement plan would be insanely awesome. Of course to do this we would need everyone to donate all server up steedgrass to the clan bank. lol Probably not going to happen.

This is in the works, but is really hard to iron out. Tasho and I were brainstorming last night about this very thing.

One thing I can say...I'vee reimbursing players in MY groups gear if gear is looted (ask Fraq) to the best of my ability. I've also been master looting gear in PVP when it can be safely done to hand it out to party members and stock pile some in the clan bank for reimbursment.

Believe me..I want the PVPers out PVPing. No questions about that. I'm trying to do everything in my ability to make this possible so the guys who want to PVP can without having to spend hours farming. To DO this, we need a guild wide effort in stockpiling GOOD armor in the clan bank. When a backlog of armor is created, the PVP groups should be self sufficient in supplying thier own gear and hopefully mounts.


The bottom line is..there is no clear cut way to accomplish any of this without taxation of SOME sort....so we're trying to get it done by volunteerism alone right now.

I personally farmed for two days straight to supply Revco and Cith with thier introductory Champion sets that are crafted plate enchanted weapons food resin, etc. (Kay and Hare farmed alot as well. Hare supplied the weapons by himself). So ya...my point is: I'm doing all I can do keep everyone geared. At some point, people have to step up and help us out. No one, leadership or otherwise, can do it all alone.

I agree it's not an easy thing in this game to work out (reimbursement program). Not bitching or pointing fingers. All of you command types do a really good job leading and trying to make it fair and fun for everyone. Not an easy job.

One way to make the reimbursement program easier to maintain is to set a lower gear standard. Say full banded or something. Players can bring better if they have it (or if we can pass it out), but should only ever expect banded reimbursements. Banded is pretty easy to keep a stockpile of, especially if we do a couple more of those iron farm groups. We get like 1000 ore in an hour or two. That's a lot of armor.

A gear reimbursement program might be a hard sell, especially considering how long it takes and/or what sets you are looking for.

I think, if this were ever going to work, we'd have to run black knight farming groups rather than farming the gear ourselves. Even with 100 in mining, getting the iron for plate isn't something to scoff at.

Everyone, to some extent, should be able to farm their own gear ... or at the very least, go out in chain or bone knight armor. (Which I do sometimes, works wonders)

We all know the difficulties involved, but we're looking for reasonable solutions.

O I am down, did this with scrawl once, its fun.
John Xao

An option to consider is to start challenging TheMercs and SN for the center dungeon black knight spawn, because at their drop rate, it would well compensate us for the time spent - only downside being that it's a high traffic area, and often would have to fight for the spawn. (Which, at least in my eyes, isn't a bad thing)