The KGB Oracle

THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque"

Posted By: JetStar

THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 04:53 PM

Well I know you think I am a tree hugging liberal, so why not take it from the most trusted news program in the US. Here are the facts. The guy who is funding this thing actually worked for the Bush Administration.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 05:11 PM

Reminds me of the song "You spin me right round, right round, like a top baby, right round, right round..."
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Reminds me of the song "You spin me right round, right round, like a record baby, right round, right round..."


Fixed
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Well I know you think I am a tree hugging liberal, so why not take it from the most trusted news program in the US. Here are the facts. The guy who is funding this thing actually worked for the Bush Administration.


We only think you're a tree hugging liberal because the things you say and advocate doing are tree hugger liberal things laugh

Watch the video again. The Imam was picked by the Bush administration to extol the merits of America to the Middle East (his recent comments about us suffering the consequences of opposing the mosque makes me think he might not have been the right guy for the job). The guy interviewed is the developer and has nothing to do with the Bush administration. Also, the guy interviewed is identified as the owner, but he's not. The actual owner of the building is an eight-member investment group led by Soho Properties, for whom El-Gamal is the CEO. Hisham Elzanaty is the single largest investor in the proposed mosque, putting up most of the $4.8 million to buy the old Burlington Coat Factory building at 45 Park Place - two blocks from Ground Zero.

Egyptian-born businessman Hisham Elzanaty contributed more than $6,000 in 1999 to the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, also known as HLF, tax records show. The donations to HLF came two years before the federal government shut down the organization and designated it a terror group. Federal investigators say the group was set up as a Texas-based charity, but in fact supported Hamas.

Make of that what you will.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Reminds me of the song "You spin me right round, right round, like a top baby, right round, right round..."


Oh yeah, 60 minutes is known for the spin. LOL. You guys are amazing. Dont let the Truth get in the way of your "Facts".
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:38 PM

I just pointed out to you how they were wrong. I don't know what else I can do for you man. frown
Posted By: Drakiis

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:45 PM



or if you like the classic better;

Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:47 PM

Thanks for your poignant contribution Drakiis.







laugh God I love giving you grief!!!
Posted By: Drakiis

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 08:52 PM

anytime meat bag
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 09:06 PM

Jet, you are saying the mosque is on the level because a BUSH insider is involved?

You have fallen off the sanity wagon after all grin
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/28/10 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Jet, you are saying the mosque is on the level because a BUSH insider is involved?

You have fallen off the sanity wagon after all grin



No I was pointing that at the hard core conservative KGBers.
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 12:06 AM

What does being conservative have to do with Bush? That man is/was a progressive in sheep's clothing.
Posted By: Mamacita

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 05:45 AM

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/raywilliamjohnson?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/4/khNimZ6uPOI[/video]


lol listen to the dude scream
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Kaotic
What does being conservative have to do with Bush? That man is/was a progressive in sheep's clothing.


Anti choice? Anti Stem Cell research? Whats progressive about that?
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
What does being conservative have to do with Bush? That man is/was a progressive in sheep's clothing.


Anti choice? Anti Stem Cell research? Whats progressive about that?


Your giving Bush way to much credit. The man was a easy going Red Neck figure head. It was his adviser's and fucking cabinet members that were the wolves who brought you 8 fucked up years of extreme right winged nut job decisions.

Obama is in the same boat, only he probably thinks he is actual control. He has a cabinet of left wing nub job's making similar fucked up decisions that is going to plauge us for decades to come.

Status quo for now, just a different group of wolves in the den.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
What does being conservative have to do with Bush? That man is/was a progressive in sheep's clothing.


Anti choice? Anti Stem Cell research? Whats progressive about that?


Your giving Bush way to much credit. The man was a easy going Red Neck figure head. It was his adviser's and fucking cabinet members that were the wolves who brought you 8 fucked up years of extreme right winged nut job decisions.

Obama is in the same boat, only he probably thinks he is actual control. He has a cabinet of left wing nub job's making similar fucked up decisions that is going to plauge us for decades to come.

Status quo for now, just a different group of wolves in the den.


I disagree strongly. The only problem with the Obamacare was that it did not have a public option. Universal health care should be mandatory. Its fucking stupid that when you get sick you go bankrupt.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Kaotic
What does being conservative have to do with Bush? That man is/was a progressive in sheep's clothing.


Anti choice? Anti Stem Cell research? Whats progressive about that?


Your giving Bush way to much credit. The man was a easy going Red Neck figure head. It was his adviser's and fucking cabinet members that were the wolves who brought you 8 fucked up years of extreme right winged nut job decisions.

Obama is in the same boat, only he probably thinks he is actual control. He has a cabinet of left wing nub job's making similar fucked up decisions that is going to plauge us for decades to come.

Status quo for now, just a different group of wolves in the den.


I disagree strongly. The only problem with the Obamacare was that it did not have a public option. Universal health care should be mandatory. Its fucking stupid that when you get sick you go bankrupt.



Wow, your really that out of it? Its not that we need Universal Health Care, its that the Govmt. needs to regulate and crush the oligopoly and collusion going on with Health Care companies. Look at what is the fastest growing market, what has some of the highest margins, and were the growth is coming from. Then to top that all off, they rape those of us who actually have health care coverage to insulate and guarantee the margins to cover all the "free" health care they give to those who can not pay. Nothing is really free, someone is paying for it, and that someone is those of us employed with health care who make enough money to be above the "living" poverty levels of around 45K a year, depending on your region.

Thanks to fucking Obamacare, Boeing is scared shit less of the "Cadillac Tax" and is fundamentally changing our health care so that they won't have to pay the excise tax for providing amazing self insured coverage.

So thank you Obama, I am going to take a fucking 4k a year pay cut to pay for the droves of people who receive health care at no cost or next to no cost. I won't even mention the millions of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who receive emergency health care who help drive the cost of health care upwards to the tune of Billions a year.

Get a clue, cause your next Jet.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/29/10 11:52 PM


Unfortunately Tas is spot on here.

I have already taken a pretty big pay cut myself, not directly but because a good portion of my income is based on how well sales are going. I work for a b2b brokerage/wholesaler.

All the new taxes, regs and upcoming healthcare fees have our customers scared shitless and scrambling to figure out where the money is going to come from.

The overall economy was bad enough, Obama now has my whole industry in fucking "bunker up and hope we survive " mode. Guess how well business is going?

And just FYI the companies involved ( my customers ) are mostly not giganticorps, they are small to midsize businesses that employ between 10 and 50 people. The owners are not the archtypical "rich guy" villain with their 3-piece Armani and Cuban cigar - they are guys who drive pick-ups, wear jeans and flannel and work 12+ hour days.

In Obamas "us vs them" equation, his "us" is people who vote Democrat to use the govt as a tool to reallocate wealth at gunpoint, his "them" is all of the working people in middle-america.
Posted By: Banshee

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/30/10 12:26 AM

Jet I for one like your optimism, however naive it may be. The world needs more people with a positive outlook.

The days of 60 minutes not having an agenda are long gone and it is a sad statement on our society.
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/30/10 05:54 PM

Unfortunately optimism is a lot like good intentions, neither of them really helps or counts for much when the fit hits the shan because its time to pay the piper.
Posted By: Daye

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 09/30/10 06:45 PM


If this guy is really dumb enough to build something like this so close to an emotionally charged site like the WTC, then I say go for it.

The daily news should be fun to watch when the violence starts.
You think Abortion Clinics are targets ? Not even going to be in the same league. . . . .

It's just a very, very poor decision on his part. I would liken it to opening an Adult Novelty store in say . . . Saudi Arabia laugh

Oh my ALLAH ! What da phuk iz dis ?! RUBBER DING-DONGS !? IN MY COUNTRY ! <epic violence> lol
Posted By: Donkleaps

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 10/01/10 03:00 AM

Bilderbergs are jump starting the apocalypse so that the space beacons in Sputnik will go off to signal the zombie uprising clearly meant to release Godzilla so that the final battle with the flying spaghetti monster can commence.

That battle will trigger seismic machines set to transmit radio signals to the moon which will let the great inventor Herman R Spicy know that it is time to set off the space flare that will be the catalyst of knowing that the rapture is incoming and in doing so everyone except those who built a 1940's bombshelter and also fails to duck and cover will be wiped from the planet.

Now this will leave a select few to ressurect dinosaurs whose dna was stored in the arc of the covenant with the use of the secret island of doctor moreau which is in moon orbit.

By controlling these..."dinosaucers" all world banks will be emptied of gold and distributed equally among the apocalypse survivors before the extermination of the dinosaurs....again by the use of a giant space meteor stuck into a volcano by the flying spaghetti monster (that's right...Godzilla lost)

With dinosaurs dead again the democratic federation of the world will declare a new socialist regime and declare curling the new world sport.

All of this because Jet voted Obama.
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 10/01/10 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Donkleaps
Bilderbergs are jump starting the apocalypse so that the space beacons in Sputnik will go off to signal the zombie uprising clearly meant to release Godzilla so that the final battle with the flying spaghetti monster can commence.

That battle will trigger seismic machines set to transmit radio signals to the moon which will let the great inventor Herman R Spicy know that it is time to set off the space flare that will be the catalyst of knowing that the rapture is incoming and in doing so everyone except those who built a 1940's bombshelter and also fails to duck and cover will be wiped from the planet.

Now this will leave a select few to ressurect dinosaurs whose dna was stored in the arc of the covenant with the use of the secret island of doctor moreau which is in moon orbit.

By controlling these..."dinosaucers" all world banks will be emptied of gold and distributed equally among the apocalypse survivors before the extermination of the dinosaurs....again by the use of a giant space meteor stuck into a volcano by the flying spaghetti monster (that's right...Godzilla lost)

With dinosaurs dead again the democratic federation of the world will declare a new socialist regime and declare curling the new world sport.

All of this because Jet voted Obama.



ROFL
Posted By: Drakiis

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 10/01/10 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Donkleaps
Bilderbergs are jump starting the apocalypse so that the space beacons in Sputnik will go off to signal the zombie uprising clearly meant to release Godzilla so that the final battle with the flying spaghetti monster can commence.

That battle will trigger seismic machines set to transmit radio signals to the moon which will let the great inventor Herman R Spicy know that it is time to set off the space flare that will be the catalyst of knowing that the rapture is incoming and in doing so everyone except those who built a 1940's bombshelter and also fails to duck and cover will be wiped from the planet.

Now this will leave a select few to ressurect dinosaurs whose dna was stored in the arc of the covenant with the use of the secret island of doctor moreau which is in moon orbit.

By controlling these..."dinosaucers" all world banks will be emptied of gold and distributed equally among the apocalypse survivors before the extermination of the dinosaurs....again by the use of a giant space meteor stuck into a volcano by the flying spaghetti monster (that's right...Godzilla lost)

With dinosaurs dead again the democratic federation of the world will declare a new socialist regime and declare curling the new world sport.

All of this because Jet voted Obama.




(OMW)Oh My Win,

Donk you never fail to make me laugh that is a master piece of random.
Posted By: Slinger

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 10/01/10 10:25 PM

As Jet would say, popcorn
Posted By: Longshanks

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 10/16/10 05:08 PM

Just a little story:

It was a little before 9AM, a beautiful morning ... I was out of the shower & dressed, just finishing up my last cup of coffee & geting ready to head out to a 10:00 meeting down in Westport, anywhere between a 20 & 45 minute drive depending on traffic, planned on missing most of the traffic by leaving after rush hour ... looking at the clock, I figured I was in good shape timewise.

I had the news on. A report comes on that a plane may have hit a skyscraper in lower Manhattan, I took a seat on the couch to see what was going on ... I had the remote in my hand .. was about ready to turn everything off & head out.

There was a live feed showing smoke pouring out of one of the towers ... not much more information, some speculation that a small aircraft lost control & hit the tower ... maybe a minute goes by ... I see a plane come into frame & then disappear into the 2nd tower ... then a huge ball of fire & smoke.

I couldn't believe what I just saw .... I sat there wondering if it was some other footage of the initial impact ... but smoke was still pouring out of the 1st tower hit ... the footage was being replayed, slow motion, full speed ... dozens of times. I still had the remote in my hand, I remember putting it down on the coffee table ... I could not take my eyes off the TV.

Knowing my brother worked in lower Mahattan, the Wall street subway station was his stop into Manhattan from his home in Brooklyn, I pick up the phone to give him a call, to see if he knew what was going on ... "All cell circuits are busy" was the message ... I tried over & over again ... same message.

Then the report turns to the Pentagon ... another plane crash ... I am thinking WTF!!! I am still trying to reach my brother ... nothing but the same message. Then the 1st tower comes down ... I notice the clock on my cable box, alomst 10AM, I had been sitting there for about an hour, seemed like 10 minutes.

My phone rings, it is my sister ... she is hysterical ... asking if I knew what was going on, another call coming in ... I click over, it's my mom ... she sez she can't get ahold of my brother, I told her I was trying too.

It was the next day when he finally reached my mom & dad ... he was ok, he got off the subway maybe 10-15 minutes before the 1st tower went down ... once it went down, he and a huge crowd fled accross the Brooklyn bridge on foot ... he was pretty much still in shock when I talked to him.

The impact of that day for those of us around NYC is hard to explain ... for many of us, this issue has nothing to do with the political banter around "for or against" the building of the mosque ... nothing to do being liberal or conservative ... it is much more personal.

For me, it is just not right ... I don't feel the need have to explain why it is not right, especially to those who only see the politics behind it, those who believe if I oppose this building at this location that I am somehow intolerant ... that's a joke.

Why not put a Nazi memorial in Tel Aviv or on Normandy beach, or a Japanese cultural center in Pearl Harbor .. or a US atomic bomb historical research library in Hiroshima? Any of these ideas would demonstrate just how tolerant and far we have come? Well you wouldn't ... 'cause it is just wrong.

There really is no logical or legitimate argument for the building of this victory mosque at this location ... yes I said a "victory" mosque, because that is exactly what it will be viewed as to those who buy into the most extreme interpetations of Islam ... those who cheered & danced in the streets the days following ... actually celebrating the fact that so many people, just going about their day-to-day lives, were wiped out ... for what?
Posted By: Stubs

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/05/10 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Longshanks
Just a little story:

It was a little before 9AM, a beautiful morning ... I was out of the shower & dressed, just finishing up my last cup of coffee & geting ready to head out to a 10:00 meeting down in Westport, anywhere between a 20 & 45 minute drive depending on traffic, planned on missing most of the traffic by leaving after rush hour ... looking at the clock, I figured I was in good shape timewise.

I had the news on. A report comes on that a plane may have hit a skyscraper in lower Manhattan, I took a seat on the couch to see what was going on ... I had the remote in my hand .. was about ready to turn everything off & head out.

There was a live feed showing smoke pouring out of one of the towers ... not much more information, some speculation that a small aircraft lost control & hit the tower ... maybe a minute goes by ... I see a plane come into frame & then disappear into the 2nd tower ... then a huge ball of fire & smoke.

I couldn't believe what I just saw .... I sat there wondering if it was some other footage of the initial impact ... but smoke was still pouring out of the 1st tower hit ... the footage was being replayed, slow motion, full speed ... dozens of times. I still had the remote in my hand, I remember putting it down on the coffee table ... I could not take my eyes off the TV.

Knowing my brother worked in lower Mahattan, the Wall street subway station was his stop into Manhattan from his home in Brooklyn, I pick up the phone to give him a call, to see if he knew what was going on ... "All cell circuits are busy" was the message ... I tried over & over again ... same message.

Then the report turns to the Pentagon ... another plane crash ... I am thinking WTF!!! I am still trying to reach my brother ... nothing but the same message. Then the 1st tower comes down ... I notice the clock on my cable box, alomst 10AM, I had been sitting there for about an hour, seemed like 10 minutes.

My phone rings, it is my sister ... she is hysterical ... asking if I knew what was going on, another call coming in ... I click over, it's my mom ... she sez she can't get ahold of my brother, I told her I was trying too.

It was the next day when he finally reached my mom & dad ... he was ok, he got off the subway maybe 10-15 minutes before the 1st tower went down ... once it went down, he and a huge crowd fled accross the Brooklyn bridge on foot ... he was pretty much still in shock when I talked to him.

The impact of that day for those of us around NYC is hard to explain ... for many of us, this issue has nothing to do with the political banter around "for or against" the building of the mosque ... nothing to do being liberal or conservative ... it is much more personal.

For me, it is just not right ... I don't feel the need have to explain why it is not right, especially to those who only see the politics behind it, those who believe if I oppose this building at this location that I am somehow intolerant ... that's a joke.

Why not put a Nazi memorial in Tel Aviv or on Normandy beach, or a Japanese cultural center in Pearl Harbor .. or a US atomic bomb historical research library in Hiroshima? Any of these ideas would demonstrate just how tolerant and far we have come? Well you wouldn't ... 'cause it is just wrong.

There really is no logical or legitimate argument for the building of this victory mosque at this location ... yes I said a "victory" mosque, because that is exactly what it will be viewed as to those who buy into the most extreme interpetations of Islam ... those who cheered & danced in the streets the days following ... actually celebrating the fact that so many people, just going about their day-to-day lives, were wiped out ... for what?


I don't care much for politics. Dunno which one of those labels id be given and don't much care. I do know this is exactly how i feel about the mosque. You put it into words better then i ever could.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/05/10 09:12 PM

Socialist Commey Pinko.
Posted By: Kaotic

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/06/10 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Socialist Commey Pinko.


You left off fag, its Socialist Commey Pinko Fag laugh
Posted By: Romeo_Montague

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/07/10 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Donkleaps
Bilderbergs are jump starting the apocalypse so that the space beacons in Sputnik will go off to signal the zombie uprising clearly meant to release Godzilla so that the final battle with the flying spaghetti monster can commence.

That battle will trigger seismic machines set to transmit radio signals to the moon which will let the great inventor Herman R Spicy know that it is time to set off the space flare that will be the catalyst of knowing that the rapture is incoming and in doing so everyone except those who built a 1940's bombshelter and also fails to duck and cover will be wiped from the planet.

Now this will leave a select few to ressurect dinosaurs whose dna was stored in the arc of the covenant with the use of the secret island of doctor moreau which is in moon orbit.

By controlling these..."dinosaucers" all world banks will be emptied of gold and distributed equally among the apocalypse survivors before the extermination of the dinosaurs....again by the use of a giant space meteor stuck into a volcano by the flying spaghetti monster (that's right...Godzilla lost)

With dinosaurs dead again the democratic federation of the world will declare a new socialist regime and declare curling the new world sport.

All of this because Jet voted Obama.




Roflmao
Posted By: Prism

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/11/10 06:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Kaotic
Originally Posted By: JetStar
Well I know you think I am a tree hugging liberal, so why not take it from the most trusted news program in the US. Here are the facts. The guy who is funding this thing actually worked for the Bush Administration.


We only think you're a tree hugging liberal because the things you say and advocate doing are tree hugger liberal things laugh


Hmmm let me get this right !!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/13/10 01:37 AM

Jet, your not really a tree hugging liberal are you?

I see several sane, and some slightly insane people posting here, but I wanna make sure before my votes come in (yes I know.. overconfident) that I am not gonna be surrounded by tree hugging liberals when politics come up.. One or two is fine.. its gives everyone else someone to make fun of..
Posted By: Prism

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/15/10 04:43 AM

Lets just put it this way he voted for Obama !! Need to go any further !!
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/15/10 07:31 PM

I am pretty much the tree hugger here. All these other clowns drank the Fox News coolaide.
Posted By: Prism

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/15/10 08:37 PM

You bet ya FOX all the way baby !!

Sorry they bash the hell out of CNN = Clinton News Network !
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/16/10 02:28 AM

Its amazing that smart people like you guys believe in this plain bullshit. Just Fox saying things over and over does not make them true. Take WMD and Bush, or Saddam and Osama's supposed ties. Its all lies and your guys blindly believe it.
The most frustrating thing is that you all would support policies that make YOUR lives worse, supporting the greed in corporate America that the conservative right represents. I mean take the $200 million a day they claimed that the latest Presidential trip took, or the 135 ship escort. I cant believe anyone is stupid enough to buy that bill of goods. There are countless well documented examples of this kind of shit, here are a couple:
Quote:
The Project on Excellence in Journalism report in 2006[43] showed that 68 percent of Fox cable stories contained personal opinions, as compared to MSNBC at 27 percent and CNN at 4 percent. The "content analysis" portion of their 2005 report also concluded that "Fox was measurably more one-sided than the other networks, and Fox journalists were more opinionated on the air."[46]
A 2007 Pew Research Center poll of viewer political knowledge indicated that Fox News Channel viewers scored 35% in the high-knowledge area, the same as the national average. This was not significantly different than local news, network news and morning news, and was slightly lower than CNN (41%). Viewers of The O'Reilly Factor (51%) scored in the high category along with Rush Limbaugh (50%), NPR (51%), major newspapers (54%), Newshour with Jim Lehrer (53%) The Daily Show (54%) and The Colbert Report (54%).[47]
Research has shown that there is a correlation between the presence of the Fox News Channel in cable markets and increases in Republican votes in those markets.[48]
The documentary Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism claims that Fox reporters and anchors, rather than citing an anonymous source in order to advance a storyline, Fox personalities allegedly use the phrase "some people say" to include unattributed conservative opinion and commentary into reports. In the film, Media Matters for America president David Brock noted that some shows, like Fox's evening news program, Special Report with Brit Hume, tend to exhibit editorializing attitudes and behavior when on the air.
A study by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA),[49] in the Winter 03-04 issue of Political Science Quarterly, reported that viewers of Fox News, the Fox Broadcasting Company, and local Fox affiliates were more likely than viewers of other news networks to hold three misperceptions:[50]
67% of Fox viewers believed that the "U.S. has found clear evidence in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist organization" (Compared with 56% for CBS, 49% for NBC, 48% for CNN, 45% for ABC, 16% for NPR/PBS).
The belief that "The U.S. has found Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq" was held by 33% of Fox viewers and only 23% of CBS viewers, 19% for ABC, 20% for NBC, 20% for CNN and 11% for NPR/PBS
35% of Fox viewers believed that "the majority of people [in the world] favor the U.S. having gone to war" with Iraq. (Compared with 28% for CBS, 27% for ABC, 24% for CNN, 20% for NBC, 5% for NPR/PBS)
In response, Fox News frequent guest Ann Coulter characterized the PIPA findings as "misperceptions of pointless liberal factoids" and called it a "hoax poll."[51] Bill O'Reilly called the study "absolute crap."[52] Roger Ailes referred to the study as "an old push poll."[53] James Taranto, editor of OpinionJournal.com, the Wall Street Journal's online editorial page, called the poll "pure propaganda."[54] PIPA issued a clarification on October 17, 2003, stating that "The findings were not meant to and cannot be used as a basis for making broad judgments about the general accuracy of the reporting of various networks or the general accuracy of the beliefs of those who get their news from those networks. Only a substantially more comprehensive study could undertake such broad research questions," and that the results of the poll show correlation, but do not prove causation.[55][56]
A study published in November 2005 by Tim Groseclose, a professor of political science at UCLA, comparing political bias from such news outlets as the New York Times, USA Today, the Drudge Report, the Los Angeles Times, and Fox News’ Special Report, concluded "all of the news outlets we examine, except Fox News’ Special Report and the Washington Times, received scores to the left of the average member of Congress." In particular, Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume had an Americans for Democratic Action rating that was right of the political center. Groseclose used the number of times a host cited a particular think tank on his or her program and compared it with the number of times a member of the U.S. Congress cited a think tank, correlating that with the politician's Americans for Democratic Action rating.[57][58]
Geoff Nunberg, a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley and a National Public Radio commentator, criticized the methodology of the study and labeled its conclusions invalid.[59] He pointed to what he saw as a Groseclose's reliance on interpretations of facts and data that were taken from sources that were not, in his view, credible. Groseclose and Professor Jeff Milyo rebutted, saying Nunberg "shows a gross misunderstanding [of] our statistical method and the actual assumptions upon which it relies."[60] Mark Liberman (a professor of Computer Science and the Director of Linguistic Data Consortium at the University of Pennsylvania), who helped post Groseclose and Milyo's rebuttal, later posted how the statistical methods used to calculate this bias pose faults.[61][62] Mark concluded "that many if not most of the complaints directed against G&M are motivated in part by ideological disagreement — just as much of the praise for their work is motivated by ideological agreement. It would be nice if there were a less politically fraught body of data on which such modeling exercises could be explored."[61]
A December 2007 study/examination by Robert Lichter of a self-described nonpartisan media watchdog group, the Center for Media and Public Affairs found that Fox News's evaluations of all of the 2008 Democratic presidential candidates combined was 51% positive and 49% negative, while the network's evaluations of the Republican presidential candidates 51% negative and 49% positive. The study, however, did find that Fox's coverage was less negative toward Republican candidates than the coverage of broadcast networks.[63] In addition, FAIR has noted that Lichter himself is a Fox News contributor. Also, on the January 10, 2008, edition of The O'Reilly Factor, Lichter stated that he only examined the first half of the Special Report with Brit Hume.[citation needed]
The “2010 State of the News Media” Report by the Pew Center on Excellence in Journalism found that in 2009, Fox News Channel had average daytime audience of 1.2 million and nighttime viewership of 2.13 million, higher than its cable competitors. For 2009, CNN continued to lead Fox online, as CNN.com had more than 20.7 million unique visitors daily, compared to 12.7 million unique visitors daily at Fox.com. The report added that Fox spends $674 million on its news programs in 2009, and that 72 percent of this amount was for “producing its host-driven programs including multimillion-dollar salaries.” The remaining 28 percent ($188 million) went to administrative and overhead costs, including news staffing and bureaus. That figure is less than half of what is spent by CNN and HLN on its administrative and overhead costs.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Jet
Its amazing that smart people like you guys believe in this plain bullshit. Just Fox saying things over and over does not make them true. Take WMD and Bush, or Saddam and Osama's supposed ties. Its all lies and your guys blindly believe it.
The most frustrating thing is that you all would support policies that make YOUR lives worse, supporting the greed in corporate America that the conservative right represents. I mean take the $200 million a day they claimed that the latest Presidential trip took, or the 135 ship escort. I cant believe anyone is stupid enough to buy that bill of goods. There are countless well documented examples of this kind of shit, here are a couple:

Just a couple of things:
1. Saddam did indeed have WMD.. he even used them on his own people (the Kurds during their rebellion), not to mention the Iranians. Look it up.. he gassed and killed over a million people.

2. Saddam and Osama.. I know there were Bush/Osama ties, but not positive about Saddam. It is logical that they might have hooked up after the WTC incident and the subsequent invasion of Iraq. "My enemies enemy is my friend after all"

3. The Obama vacation costs.. Just to be clear: Nobody knows how much all that shit is costing us, but based on the number of planes, helicopters, hundreds of staff members (not to mention 500+ security agents), and the fact that they are paying people to remove coconuts from the goddamned trees so dear leader doesnt have one fall on his head, it is costing way too much. Excessive is the understatement of the decade. For a guy who is always talking about the American people needing to "tighten our belts" or how those of us who work hard "can afford to pay a little more", the bastard sure is living high on the hog, and using my money to do it.




Based on what I see you saying, if there was an Osama/Saddam connection, it would have been legitimate to go after one or the other. Ok, so what about the Obama/Ayers connection? One organized a bombing campaign that killed dozens of civilians, while the other is quite vocal about how fucked up we are as a country. Sounds remarkably similar.. Why the double standard, Jet?

To touch on your comment about us voting to make it worse on ourselves, I dont quite see it that way. If I bust my ass to make more than $250,000 a year, I do not deserve to be hit with a tax $35,000 above and beyond what I would have paid if I made $249,000 a year. Talk about being penalized for productivity. How is voting for a guy who advocates punishment of productivity in my interests? Why in the world would I support those policies?

And thats just the tip of the iceburg... wE could get into healthcare and immigration (and I am sure we will at some point), or foriegn policy (which you would do well to leave alone.. your guy isnt exactly doing so hot there at the moment).

Why you think we should support the policies of those who would destroy us is beyond me.. you seem like such a smart dude (but looks have deceived me before).

Your stance against greed would have been logical if you were in Europe or anywhere else that has an aristocracy, or an elite class that acquires its wealth through exploitation of the masses, and where the masses have no ability to cross the class threshold. In America, however, it is entirely possible to CREATE wealth, which is what set us apart from virtually all otehr nations and made this country great. You see, we were the first country in history to have a system that allowed the actual creation of wealth. Before that, the Robber-Barons simply siezed their wealth, which is why the word greed was given such a bad reputation.
Here in America, greed is a virtue rather than a sin, provided you are not a thief. Thieves exist in all cultures, and the for the purposes of this conversation, we will define a thief as "one who takes the unearned from the unwilling"
Working your ass off the generate a customer base and a revenue stream does not quite fit that description now does it?
How about becoming a mega corporation who still sells a product? I dont hear anyone complaining about cheap cereal or toothpaste or the fact that you can buy it all and more in one place (try doing that anywhere else in the world).

No, the only ones I see who fit that description are the ones who seem to consider themselves Americas aristocracy, and allow themselves to forget that we do not actually have one..
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 05:32 PM


1. Saddam WMD were taken from him after the first Gulf war. He did not want to admit to having none, because he was terrified of Iran and did not think the USA would really invade.

2. Saddam and Osama hated each other, one was secular the other jihadist. There is no evidence they collaborated, and no reason to ever think they did or would. Al Quada wanted to undermine Iraq and set themselves up there, but were generally not able to do so until we were kind enough to eliminate not just Saddam but the entire Baathist secular establishment.

3. That 200 million a day was not for Obama vacation, but rather his trip to India. It is also grossly off the mark. also remember, that all those personnel involved are going to still be drawing a check whether they are in India that week or not. Honestly, making big foreign trips to important countries like India is directly related to national security and what a President should be doing.

I do agree with your last couple paragraphs though. There is nothing good about Socialism and forced wealth redistribution.

It just seems important, that we all try and keep focused on what is really wrong, and what is really important - like fighting Socialism.

One big reason for this - is convincing the opposition. Convincing people like Jet, for example.

You will never convince someone like Jet that Obama is dangerous to the USA by using a false reference like that 200mil a day crap, or trying to convince anyone that Bush had a clue.

But if you focus on the evil inherent in the Obamacare bill for instance, or the monetary policy being espoused and implemented by Bernake but supported by Obama - that is a different story. There is plenty wrong with Obama, but a great chunk of America will refuse to listen, if the same people pointing out the flaws are also wearing flaws considered by many to be just as large.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid

1. Saddam WMD were taken from him after the first Gulf war. He did not want to admit to having none, because he was terrified of Iran and did not think the USA would really invade.

2. Saddam and Osama hated each other, one was secular the other jihadist. There is no evidence they collaborated, and no reason to ever think they did or would. Al Quada wanted to undermine Iraq and set themselves up there, but were generally not able to do so until we were kind enough to eliminate not just Saddam but the entire Baathist secular establishment.

3. That 200 million a day was not for Obama vacation, but rather his trip to India. It is also grossly off the mark. also remember, that all those personnel involved are going to still be drawing a check whether they are in India that week or not. Honestly, making big foreign trips to important countries like India is directly related to national security and what a President should be doing.


I agree with these responses wholeheartedly, and they are documented fact. The Republican propaganda machine has successfully brain washed people into believing otherwise.

To me there is underlying racial prejudice here that the far right just cant or wont admit. Why is it that NOONE has ever questioned the costs of a Presidential trip in the past?

How many people do you all know that have been bankrupted because they got sick, and then dropped by their insurance company. I know plenty! Why does noone question Medicare? It is a successfully run GOVERNMENT socialized medicine program. Bottom line is healthcare should NOT be for profit. It is totally a conflict of interest. Is Britain socialist? How about Canada? I just dont understand how you folks can think this way. "Obamacare" got raped by the republicans and special interests. You should educate yourselves on what really happened during the negotiations leading up to passing what was a tained version of the vision, but way better than nothing. I would suggest:
FRONTLINE: Obama's Deal

If you want to get the real story about WMD and Iraq, you should get it right out of the horses mouth, from Bush insiders, and again a FRONTLINE piece created by PBS:
FRONTLINE: Bush's War

To counter Derid's last point, In my opinion, it is exactly the opposite of what you see. I know for a fact that noone will take the time to educate themselves, and will go on believing the tainted stories from places like Fox News and the Religious Right. It is this closed mindedness that is leading this country to ruin. I have re-written the old saying to go like this, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them THINK".
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 09:45 PM

Oh,

One more of my favorite FRONTLINEs for those that care to educate themselves:
FRONTLINE: The Dark Side

This is the TRUE story of your buddy Dick Cheney.

And before you go blasting FRONTLINE, read this before you make a fool of yourself:
Quote:
Since 1983, FRONTLINE has served as American public television's flagship public affairs series. Hailed upon its debut on PBS as "the last best hope for broadcast documentaries," FRONTLINE's stature over 28 seasons is reaffirmed each week through incisive documentaries covering the scope and complexity of the human experience.


When FRONTLINE was born, however, the prospects for television news documentaries looked grim. Pressure was on network news departments to become profitable, and the spirit of outspoken journalistic inquiry established by programs like Edward R. Murrow's See It Now and Harvest of Shame had given way to entertainment values and feature-filled magazine shows. Therefore, it fell to public television to pick up the torch of public affairs and carry on this well-established broadcast news tradition.

Since its inception, FRONTLINE has never shied away from tough, controversial issues or complex stories. In an age of anchor celebrities and snappy sound bites, FRONTLINE remains committed to providing a primetime venue for engaging reports that fully explore and illuminate the critical issues of our times. Starting with the 2010-2011 season, the series is expanding to a year-round broadcast presence that will include adding several magazine-format programs, which will enable FRONTLINE to respond more quickly to breaking news stories.

To support the creation of these new segments and programs, FRONTLINE has begun deepening its existing partnerships with ProPublica, the Center for Investigative Reporting, and other respected news organizations. New partnerships with NPR, Planet Money, and other news outlets, meanwhile, are supporting FRONTLINE's efforts to cultivate a new, younger generation of producers and reporters.

"TELEVISION'S LAST FULLY SERIOUS BASTION OF JOURNALISM."
Newsday
Over the years, FRONTLINE has built a reputation for powerful reporting that tackles the tough, controversial, and complex stories that shape our times. From Martin Smith's on-the-ground reporting in Obama's War to Michael Kirk's investigation into the hidden history of the financial crisis; from Ofra Bikel's examination of America's racial divide over the O.J. Simpson verdict, to special reports like The Age of AIDS or Bush's War, and provocative journeys like Hedrick Smith's search for the answer to the question, Is Wal-Mart Good for America? FRONTLINE gives its award-winning journalists and filmmakers the time needed to thoroughly research a story and the time on-air to tell the story in a compelling way.

Credible, thoughtful reporting combined with powerful narrative, a good story well told: That is at the heart of FRONTLINE's commitment to its viewers.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 09:46 PM

So what I get out of Jet is that only Republicans run the large companys and Republicans are the only rich people in the country.
So only Republicans run the country because of all the money they give to politicians, so Democrats are run by Republicans cause they took money from Big Companys that are only owned by Republicans.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 09:49 PM

Oh one more important one!
FRONTLINE: Inside the Meltdown

Here are the facts from the players themselves on how the financial meltdown came about and who did, why did, and what was done about it.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:06 PM

So how is this the Republicans fault I dont get it?????
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
So how is this the Republicans fault I dont get it?????


Watch the programs. You will understand.

This is not a love fest for Obama by any means (Healthcare). In fact it is largely critical of how it went down.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:08 PM

An Iraqi General - George Sadas who was apparently "number 2" in Iraq's air force - is claiming that Saddam moved his WMD's into Syria by loading them into stripped out civilian air craft and flying them across the border.

One thing that often gets overlooked when the case for war with Iraq is debated is that while it is clear that our intelligence on Saddam's WMD's was clearly wrong that fact does not necessarily imply that Saddam didn't have any WMD's. We know, for a fact, that at one time Saddam did have chemical and biological weapons. He used some of them, both on his own people and during wars with other middle eastern nations. Unfortunately, many political opportunists and media pundits have chosen to spin the fact that we haven't found any WMD's in Iraq into Saddam never having them. Which just isn't true.

He had them. We know that. What we don't know is where they went before we got into Iraq, or even how long they'd been gone by the time we arrived. There are a lot of theories, of course, as to where they went and how. Sadas' claims sound about as reasonable as any of them.

One day we may even know for sure.

I remember watching a video of a spy plane following the UN inspectors around, before the war, they watched as they were held up for hours as another plane watched the location they were going to and watched trucks back up and get loaded up and driven away.
Only after the trucks left where the inspectors allowed to go the the location.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:14 PM


Jet, how is health care being for profit a conflict of interest?

If that is the case, why should farming be for profit - people also need to eat. Why should textile manufacturing be for profit, people need clothes. Why should construction be for profit, people need shelter.

I fail to see how stealing from me, or anyone, simply because other people "need" something can be just, or productive in the long term.

These things do not just appear, though in a 10 trillion dollar economy , they may take on the "illusion" of just "happening". But real people have to expend their life's time, effort, and often considerable risk to achieve the production of all these things, health care included.

Why should they not attempt to use their skills and efforts to create a better life for themselves, their families, and their own goals. Who is anyone to say that our lives should be forcibly spent for the betterment of "others".

What is that, if not a form of slavery? The only real difference between this type of Socialism and real slavery, is that the producers of society are given the option to simply not produce. " Who is John Galt? "

Also, British health care sucks ass by all accounts. If the govt says a procedure, even a life saving one is not "covered" you are left with 3 options.

1. ) die

2. ) get rich quickly, and goto the USA for real treatment

3. ) goto India, or other lightly regulated nation for cheap health care. Which is causing all sorts of medical issues, including the spread of a new strain of superbugs that no antibiotic will work against.

Britain is largely Socialist, and has been economically, culturally, and socially stagnant because of it. Germany is finally starting to get a clue, soon the leftist state of Europe will be waking up to the fact that "progressive" ideals are largely a failure... see Greece, and Ireland. California itself is a good case in point against govt zeal. If the rest of the country was run like California, I guarantee we would not be having a discussion, because we would all only have electricity a couple hours a day... unless we imported it from Mexico, anyhow.


Anyhow, there is not one historical example to be found, where increasing regulation, wealth re-distribution and govt economic management and distribution has worked. Not one.

In every case you can find from Rome to the Ottomans to modern European nations, these types of steps and this whole school of thought - be it enacted under the name of Socialism or similar policies enacted under monarchies - increasing govt stranglehold on economic activity and increased wealth distribution have to nothing but more misery, corruption, and societal failure.

There is "one" exception that proves the rule - and that is when a govt is in possesion of large quantities of natural resource that are desired far and wide. Like oil.

But MArgaret Thatcher was 100% correct that " The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money to spend". By extension you can count a natural resource, in a fashion, as "other peoples money". Or more aptly put " wealth that exists but you did not create".

In a way, such countries and civilizations are the anti-socialist poster children of the world. Because we all know what happens to each and every one of them when the Oil/Gold/Diamonds/etc run out.

Other peoples money, and/or natural resources can pay for a lot of bread and circus, but they cannot do it indefinitely. Good intentions, do not necessarily create good policy.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:36 PM

Derid,

It is more profitable for Insurance companies to NOT cover the sickest people. If you get real sick, you lose.

The world health organization ranks us 37th in Health Care:
Quote:
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America


I fail to see how this is stealing from anyone. You dont complain about paying for Medicare in every paycheck? I don't hear you mention that.

As for this notion of wealth re-distribution, the tax rate on the richest Americans is way lower than it has been in the past:

1918: The top rate was in fact 77%, as the chart said, because tax rates were raised in order to help pay for World War I. Tax rates started to fall in the years afterwards.

1932: Rates had been falling the past few years until 1932 when the top rate was 63% (if you think this is bad, wait until the US was deep into World War II). This rate increased in the years leading up to and including World War II.

1945: 94% tax on income over $200,000 – absolutely astounding. It stayed over 90% until 1964 when it was lowered to 77% and had been consistently falling.

2010:
Tax Bracket - Single ------ Married Filing Jointly
10% Bracket - $0 – $8,375 - $0 – $16,750
15% Bracket - $8,375 – $34,000 - $16,750 – $68,000
25% Bracket - $34,000 – $82,400 - $68,000 – $137,300
28% Bracket - $82,400 – $171,850 - $137,300 – $209,250
33% Bracket - $171,850 – $373,650 - $209,250 – $373,650
35% Bracket - $373,650+ - $373,650+

Based on these facts, your arguements just dont hold water. The term "Wealth redistribution" is just right wing propaganda. I certainly never heard that back when in 1945 through 1964.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:53 PM

Flat Tax!!

No Exemptions.

No Married Status.

Everyone files separately.

Under $44,000 = 0%

$44,000-$70,000 = 9%

$70,000 - $150,000 = 16%

$150,000 - $210,000 = 21%

$210,000 and over = 26%

Its not wealth distribution, its called fair taxation with due representation...
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 10:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Flat Tax!!

No Exemptions.

No Married Status.

Everyone files separately.

Under $44,000 = 0%

$44,000-$70,000 = 9%

$70,000 - $150,000 = 16%

$150,000 - $210,000 = 21%

$210,000 and over = 26%

Its not wealth distribution, its called fair taxation with due representation...


/agree
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 11:04 PM

Honestly, its not about propoganda - I come to my conclusions by looking not at bits and pieces out of context, but examining the social and economic structures from which these events and phenominae sprout.

Also, something you should take note of - are the criteria used by the WHO to come up with these lists. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow I will take a look and unravel that WHO list in detail.

Saying that the top rates were higher in years past to pay for wars is also somewhat disingenuous, as noone will argue that taxing to pay for necessary national defense is in any way equivalent to "social redistribution of wealth". You are comparing apples and oranges, and that line of attack does not hold merit.

Another thing to remember, is that comparable with the lowering of tax rates on upper incomes - is the level at which new "rich folk" are made. IE: the more people are allowed to keep of their own money, the more people there are who come to have more money. If anything you have helped prove an important point held dear by fiscal conservatives.

And yet another angle to examine, is quality of living across classes.

But anyhow, you should recant that line of argument - and come up with a line of reasoning extolling high tax rates that does not involve using said taxes to pay for World Wars.

Besides, all lowering those rates did was help encourage the middle and upper middle classes. Truly wealthy folk have always had many means of hiding said wealth from the taxman, and that has not changes. Tycoons of old simply lived high on the hog on "company assets". Wining and dining were, and are, legit "business expenses".

Please explain which of my positions, other than that WHO chart, which I will address later once I find out what they are actually measuring, that tax argument was meant to annul.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 11:04 PM

Being in the 28% tax bracket is fine, if there was a fair and equitable tax code.

What is bullshit is being penalized for not be married and having a tribe of crumb snatchers. We reward those who aren't fiscally sound with the worlds largest subsidization in the form of tax credits. We reward people who purchase homes beyond their means, allowing them to write off interest. While at one point from the late 40's through the early 70's before hyperinflation, this actually did what it was suppose to do, it encouraging individuals to purchase a home. Now with an housing market that has been over valued due to continual flipping of ownership and using homes as an equity commodity to be traded for revenue, we have fucked ourselves into a new era of the Company Store.

How about we just get fucking rid of the subsidization, and have a real discussion about taxation. Oh wait, that isn't the pro forma or status quo in Government. That would be to tell you I am going to do something, and then to do the opposite, all the while telling you I am doing what I said I was going to do.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 11:29 PM

Holy crap, I started looking into the WHO report... and even I am shocked by what I found, and not in a good way.

"Governments should be the “stewards” of their national resources, maintaining
and improving them for the benefit of their populations. In health, this means
being ultimately responsible for the careful management of their citizens’ wellbeing." - excerpt from WHO report.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_ch6_en.pdf

Citizens should be responsible for their own well-being, not the Govt. Or at least have the option to do so.

Looking elsewhere in the report, it is clear that a primary criteria for the WHO ranking was based specifically ON how "socialized" the health care was. Actual availability and quality of care either did not factor, or were weighted low on this particular health report.

This WHO ranking , being largely a measurement of Socialization, is therefore null and void for legitimate use in a debate of this nature. Saying the USA ranks low on a WHO list due to lack of Socialization, is not in itself, an argument for Socialization.

I knew there was something pretty fishy when Columbia ranked higher than the USA.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Saying that the top rates were higher in years past to pay for wars is also somewhat disingenuous, as noone will argue that taxing to pay for necessary national defense is in any way equivalent to "social redistribution of wealth". You are comparing apples and oranges, and that line of attack does not hold merit.


Please clarify, since we are in TWO wars right now, why we are even discussing this. How can people expect for our country to be in TWO wars at the same time, for almost a decade (Unprecedented in our history) and have no tax increase to pay for them? How is paying our bills considered a redistribution of wealth, when you yourself condoned paying for war in the past as an acceptable excuse for a 90% tax rate on the rich?

Quote:
Direct Iraq War costs:

As of February 2010, around $704 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz.[2]
Those figures are significantly more than typical estimates published just prior to the start of the Iraq War, many of which were based on a shorter term of involvement. For example, in a March 16, 2003 Meet the Press interview of Vice President Dick Cheney, held less than a week before the Iraq War began, host Tim Russert reported that "every analysis said this war itself would cost about $80 billion, recovery of Baghdad, perhaps of Iraq, about $10 billion per year. We should expect as American citizens that this would cost at least $100 billion for a two-year involvement."[3].
[edit]Appropriations
See also: Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund
FY2003 Supplemental: Operation Iraqi Freedom: Passed April 2003; Total $78.5 billion, $54.4 billion Iraq War
FY2004 Supplemental: Iraq and Afghanistan Ongoing Operations/Reconstruction: Passed November 2003; Total $87.5 billion, $70.6 billion Iraq War
FY2004 DoD Budget Amendment: $25 Emergency Reserve Fund (Iraq Freedom Fund): Passed July 2004, Total $25 billion, $21.5 billion (estimated) Iraq War
FY2005 Emergency Supplemental: Operations in the War on Terror; Activities in Afghanistan; Tsunami Relief: Passed April 2005, Total $82 billion, $58 billion (estimated) Iraq War
FY2006 Department of Defense appropriations: Total $50 billion, $40 billion (estimated) Iraq War.
FY2006 Emergency Supplemental: Operations Global War on Terror; Activities in Iraq & Afghanistan: Passed February 2006, Total $72.4 billion, $60 billion (estimated) Iraq War
FY2007 Department of Defense appropriations: $70 billion(estimated) for Iraq War-related costs[4][5]
FY2007 Emergency Supplemental (proposed) $100 billion
FY2008 Bush administration has proposed around $190 billion for the Iraq War and Afghanistan[6]
FY2009 Obama administration has proposed around $130 billion in additional funding for the Iraq War and Afghanistan.[7]
FY2011 Obama administration proposes around $159.3 billion for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.[8]
[edit]Indirect and delayed costs
According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money. The CBO estimated that of the $2.4 trillion long-term price tag for the war, about $1.9 trillion of that would be spent on Iraq, or $6,300 per U.S. citizen.[9][10]
Stiglitz, former chief economist of the World Bank and winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics, has stated the total costs of the Iraq War on the US economy will be three trillion dollars in a moderate scenario, and possibly more in the most recent published study, published in March 2008.[11] Stiglitz has stated: "The figure we arrive at is more than $3 trillion. Our calculations are based on conservative assumptions...Needless to say, this number represents the cost only to the United States. It does not reflect the enormous cost to the rest of the world, or to Iraq."[11]
The extended combat and equipment loss have placed a severe financial strain on the U.S Army, causing the elimination of non-essential expenses such as travel and civilian hiring.[12][13]


The UH-60 Black Hawk that crashed on September 21, 2004.
[edit]Long-term health care costs
A recent study indicated that the long term health care costs for wounded Iraq war veterans could range from $350 billion to $700 billion.[14]
[edit]Military equipment lost
The U.S. has lost a number of pieces of military equipment during the war. The following statistics are from the Center for American Progress:[15]; they are approximations that include vehicles lost in non-combat-related accidents as of 2009.

Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/17/10 11:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Holy crap, I started looking into the WHO report... and even I am shocked by what I found, and not in a good way.

"Governments should be the “stewards” of their national resources, maintaining
and improving them for the benefit of their populations. In health, this means
being ultimately responsible for the careful management of their citizens’ wellbeing." - excerpt from WHO report.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_ch6_en.pdf

Citizens should be responsible for their own well-being, not the Govt. Or at least have the option to do so.

Looking elsewhere in the report, it is clear that a primary criteria for the WHO ranking was based specifically ON how "socialized" the health care was. Actual availability and quality of care either did not factor, or were weighted low on this particular health report.

This WHO ranking , being largely a measurement of Socialization, is therefore null and void for legitimate use in a debate of this nature. Saying the USA ranks low on a WHO list due to lack of Socialization, is not in itself, an argument for Socialization.

I knew there was something pretty fishy when Columbia ranked higher than the USA.


Ok, if you dont like the WHO, lets go by Adult Mortality rate. This is a true measure of how well your health care system is doing right? Where do you think the US ranks?
Originally Posted By: Washington Post
Adult mortality, measured as the probability of dying after the 15th birthday but before the 60th, dropped 19 percent for men and 34 percent for women over the past 40 years.

The country with the lowest adult male mortality was Iceland, with 65 premature deaths per 1,000 men. The highest was Swaziland, with 765 premature deaths per 1,000 men. For women, the country with the lowest rate was Cyprus (38 deaths per 1,000) and the one with the highest was Zambia (606 deaths per 1,000).

The United States ranked 45th in the mortality rate for men, which stood at 130, and 49th in the rate for women, which was 77. The average decline over the four decades was less than 1 percent a year.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043003006.html
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 12:17 AM

Because for one, they are not "total wars" - like the World Wars were.
A good quick definition of Total War : "Total war is a war limitless in its scope in which a belligerent engages in the mobilization of all their available resources, in order to render beyond use their rival's capacity for resistance."

The two wars were not initiated on the basis of being wars of that magnitude, and yes wars have magnitude. They were also not sold to Congress and authorized as such.

Comparing our interventions in these states to the World Wars is not compelling. And even if it were necessary to raise taxes for the prosecution of said wars, the main topic of debate is necessity and morality of taking productivity forcibly from one citizen and bequething it to another, due to a percieved need on behalf - and to what degree that is both sustainable, and acceptable.

Mind you, I am not and have not argued in favor of total and immediate abolition of all aspects of the welfare state. However, I think what so many have lost sight of - is that there are reasonable limits to how much can be done before you start doing irreperable harm not only to the overall economy, but to society itself.

Justifying aspects of the welfare state as needed expediencies is one thing, justifying a full welfare state philosophically as something that someone should have a "right" to, is something completely different.

In the name of rational expediency, you can create perfectly rational arguments as to how some degree of social safety nets, however unsavory in concept, can reduce the burden of other institutions and also create a better environment for those who are stuck footing the bill.

However, as resources are not unlimited, you can quickly reach a point at which such services are un-sustainable. We have now passed that point. Had the Left been content to leave the level of services where they were under Clinton, there would be no problem. I think things were likely sustainable.

There is also now the question of Self-empowerment vs Micromanagement by the State. Things like making business file with the IRS for EVERY purchase over 600$, FORCING individuals to buy health care ( a CONSUMER PRODUCT) and many other issues that venture far from normal bounds regarding the balance between power of the individual and business, and govt control.

More is not always better. Right now, so many people seem to think there is always room for more. That there will never be enough.

Tell me Jet, where do you think the line lies between enough, and not enough? When would we finally be able to say " ok THIS is the LINE we will never cross, enough is enough "

Also keep in mind, that bureaucrats are seldom less self-serving than corporations. But that is another line of attack against big govt entirely, and out of the scope of this discussion for now.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Holy crap, I started looking into the WHO report... and even I am shocked by what I found, and not in a good way.

"Governments should be the “stewards” of their national resources, maintaining
and improving them for the benefit of their populations. In health, this means
being ultimately responsible for the careful management of their citizens’ wellbeing." - excerpt from WHO report.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_ch6_en.pdf

Citizens should be responsible for their own well-being, not the Govt. Or at least have the option to do so.

Looking elsewhere in the report, it is clear that a primary criteria for the WHO ranking was based specifically ON how "socialized" the health care was. Actual availability and quality of care either did not factor, or were weighted low on this particular health report.

This WHO ranking , being largely a measurement of Socialization, is therefore null and void for legitimate use in a debate of this nature. Saying the USA ranks low on a WHO list due to lack of Socialization, is not in itself, an argument for Socialization.

I knew there was something pretty fishy when Columbia ranked higher than the USA.


You should read more on Who before you judge them on one sentence. They are a 62 year old highly respected organization.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 12:24 AM

Hey Derid,

Whats your take on Social Security and Medicare?
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar


You should read more on Who before you judge them on one sentence. They are a 62 year old highly respected organization.


I have read plenty about the org in the past. What I looked for in that particular report, as I initially indicated I would, was the criteria used to concoct that ranking.

I am not saying the entire Org itself has never done anything usefull.. but using a report that ranks countries by their Socialization level of Health care as evidence that USA Health care quality and availability ranked below that of other, more heavily Socialized countries was a non-starter.

I mean come on, Colombia having better medical care than the USA?


And Social Security and Medicare... were more or less tolerable, structurally speaking, under the later Clinton years I would say. I am not going to argue for or against relatively minor changes, but as society had come to depend on them, it would be unwise to suddenly remove or alter them in any significant fashion.

Also, people have already paid into them. If you paid your medicare/SS taxes all your life you certainly have a valid claim to reap the return.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: JetStar


You should read more on Who before you judge them on one sentence. They are a 62 year old highly respected organization.


I have read plenty about the org in the past. What I looked for in that particular report, as I initially indicated I would, was the criteria used to concoct that ranking.

I am not saying the entire Org itself has never done anything usefull.. but using a report that ranks countries by their Socialization level of Health care as evidence that USA Health care quality and availability ranked below that of other, more heavily Socialized countries was a non-starter.

I mean come on, Colombia having better medical care than the USA?


And Social Security and Medicare... were more or less tolerable, structurally speaking, under the later Clinton years I would say. I am not going to argue for or against relatively minor changes, but as society had come to depend on them, it would be unwise to suddenly remove or alter them in any significant fashion.

Also, people have already paid into them. If you paid your medicare/SS taxes all your life you certainly have a valid claim to reap the return.


But in your definition, this is socialism in your definition!

What about the taxes and funding the wars in my post above?
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 05:20 AM


Jet, what are you on about? I thought it was a pretty simple stance, that the established socialist mechanisms are too entrenched to carelessly rip out. Are you truly saying that entrenching further Socialist mechanisms is good, simply because the ones we have lived with haven't crushed us yet?

Taxes to pay for Total Wars aren't relevant to the discussion, seeing as there are no total wars going on. And even if they were, there is to much good that came from lowering them to consider it an issue.


Maybe its time to reconsider some of your stances, so far your justifications are all non sequitur.

High taxes are good, because we had them during world wars?

Come on man.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 05:28 AM

You got to pay to play, and if we want the programs we have, we have to pay for them. We have to get rid of the lobbying, and if you look at the FRONTLINES that I posted, especially Obamacare, you will see that it is the corruption that costs us the most.

I am not saying higher taxes are good, I am saying if we are going to spend 700b we have to pay for it somehow.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 05:31 AM

I was all for the expansion of Medicare to offer a public option. This would be much like the Post office vs Fed EX and UPS.

It is not profitable to offer all the services that the postal service does, having post offices in small towns, etc. But the Post office keeps the shipping industry honest. This is exactly what I was hoping for with healthcare.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 05:34 AM

If you look at Fortune Magazine's 10 most profitable industries you will see this:

1 Network and Other Communications Equipment 28.8
2 Mining, Crude-Oil Production 23.8
3 Pharmaceuticals 15.8
4 Medical Products and Equipment 15.2
5 Oil and Gas Equipment, Services 13.7
6 Commercial Banks 12.6
7 Railroads 12.4
8 Entertainment 12.4
9 Insurance: Life, Health (stock) 10.6
10 Household and Personal Products 10.2

Three of the top 10 are health industry related.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 05:37 AM

And I am saying we should not be spending the 700b. In fact that is the entire gist of what I am saying in general - the spending has to stop. The govt expansion has to stop. The welfare state was barely sustainable as it was, adding to it will not help.

Typically, the first step of getting out of a hole is to stop digging. Instead Obama and Pelosi busted out the largest set of mining equipment they could find and went to go find a new path to China. Thats a problem. It seems natural to me, to question the wisdom of expanding govt and spending to record levels when your currency is already weak and your economy already teetering on the brink of depression.

You are correct about corruption costing, just remember that the more bureaucracy we accumulate, the more corruption we will have to deal with. Every layer of bureaucracy that gets added, makes accountability that much further removed from your average joe.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 11:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
Flat Tax!!

No Exemptions.

No Married Status.

Everyone files separately.

Under $44,000 = 0%

$44,000-$70,000 = 9%

$70,000 - $150,000 = 16%

$150,000 - $210,000 = 21%

$210,000 and over = 26%

Its not wealth distribution, its called fair taxation with due representation...

How is it "fair" that if I bust my ass and produce more than the next guy then I should be penalized with heavier taxes?
Due representation? Do I get more votes since I work harder and pay more?
Do I get access to more and better services due to my extra "contributions" to the social programs?

Lets say you work some crap job for $10/hr... some other lazy bastard only wants to work part time at a fast food joint for $6/hr. Is it "only fair" that you give him a fat slice of your income to make up the difference between his inherent laziness and your work ethic?

This twisting of the definition of the word "fair" by the envy class is offensive. The true definition of the word is "reasonable or unbiased". That would mean that you cannot use the tired old line "well they have less, so its only fair", as that exibits a clear bias in favor of the people who have less, and a bias against those who have more.

I should not have to pay extra because you are too goddamned lazy to support yourselves.
Posted By: Arkh

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Derid
Originally Posted By: JetStar


You should read more on Who before you judge them on one sentence. They are a 62 year old highly respected organization.


I have read plenty about the org in the past. What I looked for in that particular report, as I initially indicated I would, was the criteria used to concoct that ranking.

I am not saying the entire Org itself has never done anything usefull.. but using a report that ranks countries by their Socialization level of Health care as evidence that USA Health care quality and availability ranked below that of other, more heavily Socialized countries was a non-starter.

I mean come on, Colombia having better medical care than the USA?


And Social Security and Medicare... were more or less tolerable, structurally speaking, under the later Clinton years I would say. I am not going to argue for or against relatively minor changes, but as society had come to depend on them, it would be unwise to suddenly remove or alter them in any significant fashion.

Also, people have already paid into them. If you paid your medicare/SS taxes all your life you certainly have a valid claim to reap the return.


But in your definition, this is socialism in your definition!

What about the taxes and funding the wars in my post above?

Read the "Road to servitude" from Hayek.
He wrote it in England during WWII. Because of the fact it is the kind of times when using all efforts towards one goal shows its efficiency.

The problem during peace period is everyone has different goals in life. So where one will want efforts to go to health, other will prefer it to help fight against poverty in the world, or get everyone a car, or whatever...
Everytime you tax someone to do something, you have to go against his right to use his property.

Another problem is, all would be good if we had super humans to make all the good decisions for us on top. But those people are just humans so they err. Worst, the more power politics have, the worst kind of people (ethic wise) it attracts. So you get power hungry fuckers which only goal is to be elected, not people's well being. Usually they start creating a lot of systems to either bypass any need to get elected to get some power or they created big barriers to newcomers.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
And I am saying we should not be spending the 700b. In fact that is the entire gist of what I am saying in general - the spending has to stop. The govt expansion has to stop. The welfare state was barely sustainable as it was, adding to it will not help.

Typically, the first step of getting out of a hole is to stop digging. Instead Obama and Pelosi busted out the largest set of mining equipment they could find and went to go find a new path to China. Thats a problem. It seems natural to me, to question the wisdom of expanding govt and spending to record levels when your currency is already weak and your economy already teetering on the brink of depression.

You are correct about corruption costing, just remember that the more bureaucracy we accumulate, the more corruption we will have to deal with. Every layer of bureaucracy that gets added, makes accountability that much further removed from your average joe.


What about George Bush! The money spent on the Wars are never coming back. Thats the 700b I am talking about.

TARP is repaid with interest!
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 07:29 PM


What about him? You know well that I did not support Bush. Raising taxes to pay for those wars does not appear to be necessity.

I am talking about long term structural issues, regarding recurring and ballooning expenses. Though TARP is questionable. Long term, politicizing banking will do liekly more harm than a non-TARP meltdown. Though finance is such a complex issue, it cannot be intelligently discussed with one and two liners, and how alternatives would have worked will forever be entirely speculative.

Also talking about our current Obama supported monetary policy where the Fed just keeps printing more and more cash to inflate our way into less debt. ( relatively speaking )

Again you make my point though, with all the Bush expenses - combined with the general state of the deficit and economy, how can you begin to justify Obamacare.

You also havent responded to any of my queries.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/18/10 08:54 PM

Cause like a good Liberal he just throws a bunch of so called facts at you hoping to distract you as he bends you over and slips it in.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 02:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid

What about him? You know well that I did not support Bush. Raising taxes to pay for those wars does not appear to be necessity.

I am talking about long term structural issues, regarding recurring and ballooning expenses. Though TARP is questionable. Long term, politicizing banking will do liekly more harm than a non-TARP meltdown. Though finance is such a complex issue, it cannot be intelligently discussed with one and two liners, and how alternatives would have worked will forever be entirely speculative.

Also talking about our current Obama supported monetary policy where the Fed just keeps printing more and more cash to inflate our way into less debt. ( relatively speaking )

Again you make my point though, with all the Bush expenses - combined with the general state of the deficit and economy, how can you begin to justify Obamacare.

You also havent responded to any of my queries.


Lets talk about Obamacare. The CBO - The congressional budget office is a non-partisan arm of the congress. They were required to report on the impact of HR 3950. I am going to quote fro that report that was submitted to congress.
Quote:
H.R. 3590 would, among other things, establish a mandate for most
residents of the United States to obtain health insurance; set up insurance
exchanges through which certain individuals and families could receive
federal subsidies to substantially reduce the cost of purchasing that
coverage; significantly expand eligibility for Medicaid; substantially reduce
the growth of Medicare’s payment rates for most services (relative to the
growth rates projected under current law); impose an excise tax on
insurance plans with relatively high premiums; and make various other
changes to the federal tax code, Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs.
The reconciliation proposal includes provisions related to health care and
revenues, many of which would amend H.R. 3590. (The changes with the
largest budgetary effects are described below.) The reconciliation proposal
also includes amendments to the Higher Education Act of 1965, which
authorizes most federal programs involving postsecondary education.
(Those provisions and their budgetary effects are described below as well.)
Estimated Budgetary Impact of the Legislation
CBO and JCT estimate that enacting both pieces of legislation—H.R. 3590
and the reconciliation proposal—would produce a net reduction in federal
deficits of $143 billion over the 2010–2019 period as result of changes in
direct spending and revenues (see Table 1). That figure comprises
$124 billion in net reductions deriving from the health care and revenue
provisions and $19 billion in net reductions deriving from the education
provisions. Approximately $114 billion of the total reduction would be onbudget;
other effects related to Social Security revenues and spending as
well as spending by the U.S. Postal Service are classified as off-budget.
CBO has not completed an estimate of the potential impact of the
legislation on discretionary spending, which would be subject to future
appropriation action.


A NET REDUCTION OF 143 BILLION DOLLARS!

I dont know why you choose to believe the liars from the right on this issue. These are the facts from the CBO.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 05:32 AM


Jet, link to the source. Posting excerpts out of context that appear at first glance to make your position look better dont do a lot.

I will be able to find it myself, but its still polite to link the source.

Comming up tomorrow: why posting excerpts out of context is bad, deceptive, and what YOU can do about it. Stay tuned!
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 07:51 AM

Sorry about that. Here is the link to the actual documents and a summary. I quoted the report to congress from the PDF's on the left. But you can see the summary right there in the middle.

http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 07:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Comming up tomorrow: why posting excerpts out of context is bad, deceptive, and what YOU can do about it. Stay tuned!


I can't wait!

Stay tuned for my program on listening to the republican talking points instead of the facts makes for a backwards America.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 08:26 AM

For any of you that are watching this debate, Here is more on the CBO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_Office)

Quote:
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) is a federal agency within the legislative branch of the United States government. It is a government agency that provides economic data to Congress.[1] The CBO was created as an independent nonpartisan agency by the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974.
With respect to estimating spending for Congress, the Congressional Budget Office serves a purpose parallel to that of the Joint Committee on Taxation for estimating revenue for Congress, the Department of the Treasury for estimating revenues for the Executive and estimates required for the Congressional budget process. This includes projections on the effect on national debt[2] and cost estimates for legislation.
Section 202(e) of the Act requires submission by CBO to the House and Senate Committees on the Budget periodic reports about fiscal policy and to provide baseline projections of the federal budget. This is currently done by preparation of an annual Economic and Budget Outlook plus a mid-year update. The agency also each year issues An Analysis of the President's Budgetary Proposals for the upcoming fiscal year per a standing request of the Senate Committee on Appropriations. These three series are designated essential titles distributed to Federal Depository Libraries and are available for purchase from the Government Printing Office. CBO also prepares reports and issues briefs and provides testimony often in response to requests of the various Congressional Committees. It also issues letters responding to queries made to it by members of Congress.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Cause like a good Liberal he just throws a bunch of so called facts at you hoping to distract you as he bends you over and slips it in.


So called facts? Read for yourself! But hey, most Americans believe in the talking snake, so this is probably a losing battle.

You wouldn't want the facts get in the way of your opinions.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 03:26 PM

Lol, Jet - its about how you interpret the facts, how many facts you assimilate and interpret at one time, and how deeply you follow the path of consequence.

In all honesty, can you say that yourself or any liberal anywhere has actually ever tried to objectively work out all the ramifications? To be honest most people do not try to do that, liberal or otherwise. What lots of folk seem to do is take what sounds good to them, then rationalize against that.

Anyhow, Jet, hearing you talk that like is quite ironic - seeing as you already have a track record in this very conversation of using "facts" without actually understanding the nature of said facts, or what they mean.

Prime example - the WHO report. You appeared to be very convinced that the WHO report was primarily concerned with quality and availability of care. Instead, it was primarily concerned with who was paying for the care.

"Facts" do not mean much, if you do not take to the time to find out exactly which facts you are dealing with, what they actually mean, and what the ramifications might be.

I am also surprised that you would accuse me of all people of not thinking, and following GOP talking points. How often in the past several years have I even agreed with the GOP? Trying to make me sound like a partisan based on party affiliation just shows that denial of facts comes from all sorts of places.

Anyhow, I started looking at that CBO report. I will post on it later, but for now I can tell you that I found about what I expected and then some.

Two small nuggets for preview: 1, the report does not include "discretionary" items that need funded - even though there were like 80 lines of programs and mandates that still need funded, and will need to be funded for the Obamacare to work as intended. 2, the so called deficit reductions are based on extreme taxitation to a degree that it will be extremely harmful to ALL of us living in the USA.

Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 03:34 PM



Lololololol

Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 03:58 PM



http://www.businessinsider.com/costs-of-obamacare-2010-11#it-does-what-1

Here, in the meantime - this is a very good article listing the some side effects and issues with Obamacare. Some of them you will find, are extremely damaging just in of themselves.

They also have a very nice bibliography at the end, and used good sources - the things you read in that article aren't half baked or conjured from a right-wingers imagination.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Lol, Jet - its about how you interpret the facts, how many facts you assimilate and interpret at one time, and how deeply you follow the path of consequence.

In all honesty, can you say that yourself or any liberal anywhere has actually ever tried to objectively work out all the ramifications? To be honest most people do not try to do that, liberal or otherwise. What lots of folk seem to do is take what sounds good to them, then rationalize against that.

Anyhow, Jet, hearing you talk that like is quite ironic - seeing as you already have a track record in this very conversation of using "facts" without actually understanding the nature of said facts, or what they mean.

Prime example - the WHO report. You appeared to be very convinced that the WHO report was primarily concerned with quality and availability of care. Instead, it was primarily concerned with who was paying for the care.

"Facts" do not mean much, if you do not take to the time to find out exactly which facts you are dealing with, what they actually mean, and what the ramifications might be.

I am also surprised that you would accuse me of all people of not thinking, and following GOP talking points. How often in the past several years have I even agreed with the GOP? Trying to make me sound like a partisan based on party affiliation just shows that denial of facts comes from all sorts of places.

Anyhow, I started looking at that CBO report. I will post on it later, but for now I can tell you that I found about what I expected and then some.

Two small nuggets for preview: 1, the report does not include "discretionary" items that need funded - even though there were like 80 lines of programs and mandates that still need funded, and will need to be funded for the Obamacare to work as intended. 2, the so called deficit reductions are based on extreme taxitation to a degree that it will be extremely harmful to ALL of us living in the USA.



Derid, I am just having fun debating you. I dont take anything personal, and we are not going to change the world here, but doing so helps me to understand the issues deeper, and I enjoy this kind of banter.

If I am being a dickhead, just say so, and I will tone it down.

Again it's all in fun.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 08:07 PM

More later, I have to read your links.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 09:37 PM


Nah I dont get offended, or think the world will change. Just trying to prod this into a more interesting direction of conversation or get you to bust out some reasoning.

Kind of behind today, will post more later. And mostly, I do it cause im bored and it can be more interesting that link surfing.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid

Nah I dont get offended, or think the world will change. Just trying to prod this into a more interesting direction of conversation or get you to bust out some reasoning.

Kind of behind today, will post more later. And mostly, I do it cause im bored and it can be more interesting that link surfing.


/agree
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/19/10 09:49 PM

Bored????

DFO YEAH!
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 12:36 AM

You are telling me that a law passed that has 3k pages, and no one even said they read it all, is good?????

Nancy Pelosi said "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!

The government doesn't save money they take and spend money.

You need to get off your Democrats only do good band wagon and if nothing else listen to what Derid is saying.

As for a flat tax you have it at say 15% for all and dont raise it based on how much you make or its not a flat tax.
Posted By: Prism

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are telling me that a law passed that has 3k pages, and no one even said they read it all, is good?????

Nancy Pelosi said "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it"

How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!

The government doesn't save money they take and spend money.

You need to get off your Democrats only do good band wagon and if nothing else listen to what Derid is saying.

As for a flat tax you have it at say 15% for all and dont raise it based on how much you make or its not a flat tax.


This is so true in many ways !!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 11:25 AM

Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.
Posted By: Valaria

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 12:43 PM

I did the independent contractor thing for a few years before I met Morlander.

That shit sucks. They pay seems great till you have to pay your taxes in... then it just blows.. made my income back down to minimum wage.

I wont do that again. as for Health coverage.. I am one of those uninsured.. but I dont want Obamacare either. I would rather pay the insane hospital and dr bills.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 04:07 PM

If everyone had to pay their taxes monthly instead of their employer doing it for them, there would be a lot of changes.

If I had to write a check to the government from my personal checking account for 500-1k every month I would be a lot more vocal then I am now.

But thats the little trick they do so you dont even know.

Also most people have no idea how much a company pays extra just to employ us. If a guy makes 15 bucks an hour that translates to the employer paying upwards of 22-23 bucks an hour, possibly more as I am not a employer I am a poor working man.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 05:21 PM


Thats a really good point Helemoto, and one that constantly frustrates me when I chat with people about these sorts of things. So few people have much of a clue as to how expensive it is, and also how much liability there is in regards to employing folk.

One more unintended side effect of Obamacare - expect to see an even more pervasive " Perma Temp " underclass grow.

There is already a large underclass fo folk who are basically permanent temps... each time the govt adds costs and regulations this group of people grows.

I know a guy who worked as a manager at one of the big temp agencies. Now, keep in mind this was 5 years or so ago I got these numbers, but if a company paid a temp agency 13-14/hr, then the employee hired would typically make about 9/hr. Sounds like a big difference eh? That the employee is getting ripped off?

Apparently, the agency margins are really low though. Most of that differential goes to workmans comp, unemployment insurance, taxes, fees, etc.

Paying the small extra margins to the agencies is a good deal for companies though, because it helps shield them from liability and reduces their own paperwork load.

Expect to see a huge surge in 29 hour a week temps in 2014. The irony is the vast majority of those people will look to Obama to help them, as they are poor and Obama "helps" the poor, seldom realizing that Obama is largely responsible for their plight.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Ebola
Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.


Quick question. Do you have auto insurance that the government MADE you purchase?
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
How the hell is that saving the Government or us the tax payer 143 billion dollars. They passed a bill that means its going to cost money!!!!!!!


Read the CBO report. How can you contradict the nonpartisan CBO who are the experts on this? I bet you are enjoying Sarah Palin's Alaska on TLC.
Posted By: Donkleaps

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/20/10 10:09 PM

Nuke the whales.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 03:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Donkleaps
Nuke the whales.


Its nuke the gay whales.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 04:36 AM

You are walking with blinders on Jet.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 04:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are walking with blinders on Jet.


I would say the exact same thing to you.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 05:03 AM


Jey the reason the CBO was able to initially predict a deficit reduction, was because of the ENORMOUS level of taxes and fees imposed by the Obamacare bill, not because anything was being made more efficient.

I will probably not write in depth until Monday, but for now - on top of all the portions that have yet to recieve funding, and the huge taxes - its safe to say that there is no efficeny present. Did you take a look at that flowchart that plotted out the huge beuaracracy? Uhg.

Also, the estimates have been revised now to put the cost about 170B in the red... will post sources later when I address the bill in more depth.

Part of the problem, is that some of the base assumptions on revenue are flawed... not due to sloppy work on the part of the CBO - but rather revenues for yet to be implemented taxes are simply hard to nail down, because they depend heavily on market forces.

One example is that Obamacare introduces a 3.9% tax on all home sales. Obviously the type of revenue this tax will produce is an uncertainty, it depends on home prices and market activity.

Another example is raising the Capital Gains tax... but the more you raise the tax, the less economic activity occurs... and also the general market will fluctuate... making predicting revenues from said activity hard to predict.

Yet another factor, is changing estimates due to the number of companies that are expected to continue providing employer-based insurance as opposed to State managed health-exchanges. This number is being steadily revised downward, as under Obamacare it will be simpler and cheaper for most companies to simply stop offering insurance, and pay the fines instead.

Jet, why dont you stop for a minutes and actually "look" at what Obamacare is and does. Not what it was supposed to be, not what Obama said it would be, but what it actually is.

Good intentions do not necessarily translate into good policy. It just seems that you are so into what Obamacare intended to be, that you have yet to look at what it actually is or does.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 05:37 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
You are walking with blinders on Jet.


I would say the exact same thing to you.


I know you are but what am I?
Posted By: Ictinike

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 06:20 AM

I had a long drawn out conversation with you Jet, in my head and began to give it legs here, but alas I decided not to.

I'll just say the moral was being who you are and how you currently are in your life differs greatly from mine. While we deal in the same environments, work ethic and market of IT I can say having a wife and kids does play a role in one's thoughts about the current administration.

I'm not saying it's bad to be you or what you have, trust me, but not having the things I currently do allows you to think in a different light and I honestly and truly do feel if things were different you would have a very different aspect on life.

Not going into this here but I know from our one on one conversations in the past you respect who I am and what I believe in as well I to you so maybe in the future we can argue politics in a better arena smile

For now I'll continue to watch my FOX programming and continue to believe in those values I've grown into for this was not always the case and at a time long ago I would have considered myself a democrat by today's political terms but knowing what I've had, currently have and wish to continue to have you may call me a conservative.

Much love my friend..
Posted By: Prism

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/21/10 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Ebola
Since we are talking Obamacare now, and its potential side effects, allow me to share with you the way it will affect me, and several others (either in my position or employed by people in my position).

I own two businesses, both of which employ people. In 2014, should I have to replace a staff member or expand and hire another, it will be mandatory for me to provide health care upon the first day of employment.
No probationary period, to make sure the employee is even worthwhile and reliable. No room to make benefits a negotiation point when talking compensation with a prospective employee, and worst of all, should I, after 6 months, decide that its "just not working out" and terminate the employee, I will be reponsible for contributing to their COBRA for the following year.
To further that, if I decide that it is in my businesses interests to change insurance carriers, if the benefits or premiums change even slightly (for better or for worse), I am legally obligated to switch to the so called public "option" that doesnt really exist, but one is legally required to switch to when any policy changes are made.

Or, instead of paying $5000 a year or better per employee for contributions to coverage, I could just take advantage of the horrible employment situation and refuse to provide any coverage at all, at the cost of $750 in fines each year, per employee.


This is all without talking about the "end of life counseling", or the fact that it truly goes against the very definition of freedom to force people individually to purchase a product. If it was not government doing it, it would be called "racketeering", "assault" and "extortion". Possibly it would be called "slavery" in extreme cases. Think about it.. Some fool points a gun at you, and tells you "buy X. If you do not, you will be sent a bill for it anyway, if you do not pay the bill, we will kidnap you and hold you against your will, if you resist the kidnapping, we will kill you".

Those extreme items aside, the reality is that I am currently restructuring my businesses. No more W-2 employees for me. Nope, every person working my Inn and running insurance claims for me is quickly becoming an independent contractor. They can pay their own social "security" taxes, they can plan their own 401k's, SARSUPs and Roth IRA's. They can pay for their own health care coverage.

From a business standpoint, I provided these benefits and contributions as a matter of keeping employee loyalty, improving morale, and staying competitive in the employment arena. Paying your people decently and making sure they know they are being taken care of creates long term, competent employees, and ultimately saves money in the long run by cutting out costly mistakes and training expenditures.

However, I absolutely refuse to be made a slave to my employees. I refuse to be forced to provide anything. My employees are working for me of their own free will, and if I do not keep the same freedoms, I will close the goddamned doors in a heartbeat. Stating that I am morally and legally obligated to spend X amount of time or money in the service of another is saying that I am a slave (at the very least a temporary one).

My decision to offer specific wages and/or benefits are exactly that, my decision.


Quick question. Do you have auto insurance that the government MADE you purchase?


What does that have to do with Obamacare ??
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Ictinike
I had a long drawn out conversation with you Jet, in my head and began to give it legs here, but alas I decided not to.

I'll just say the moral was being who you are and how you currently are in your life differs greatly from mine. While we deal in the same environments, work ethic and market of IT I can say having a wife and kids does play a role in one's thoughts about the current administration.

I'm not saying it's bad to be you or what you have, trust me, but not having the things I currently do allows you to think in a different light and I honestly and truly do feel if things were different you would have a very different aspect on life.

Not going into this here but I know from our one on one conversations in the past you respect who I am and what I believe in as well I to you so maybe in the future we can argue politics in a better arena smile

For now I'll continue to watch my FOX programming and continue to believe in those values I've grown into for this was not always the case and at a time long ago I would have considered myself a democrat by today's political terms but knowing what I've had, currently have and wish to continue to have you may call me a conservative.

Much love my friend..


Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

I got some more research to do to catch up with Derid.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 04:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid

Jey the reason the CBO was able to initially predict a deficit reduction, was because of the ENORMOUS level of taxes and fees imposed by the Obamacare bill, not because anything was being made more efficient.

I will probably not write in depth until Monday, but for now - on top of all the portions that have yet to recieve funding, and the huge taxes - its safe to say that there is no efficeny present. Did you take a look at that flowchart that plotted out the huge beuaracracy? Uhg.

Also, the estimates have been revised now to put the cost about 170B in the red... will post sources later when I address the bill in more depth.

Part of the problem, is that some of the base assumptions on revenue are flawed... not due to sloppy work on the part of the CBO - but rather revenues for yet to be implemented taxes are simply hard to nail down, because they depend heavily on market forces.

One example is that Obamacare introduces a 3.9% tax on all home sales. Obviously the type of revenue this tax will produce is an uncertainty, it depends on home prices and market activity.

Another example is raising the Capital Gains tax... but the more you raise the tax, the less economic activity occurs... and also the general market will fluctuate... making predicting revenues from said activity hard to predict.

Yet another factor, is changing estimates due to the number of companies that are expected to continue providing employer-based insurance as opposed to State managed health-exchanges. This number is being steadily revised downward, as under Obamacare it will be simpler and cheaper for most companies to simply stop offering insurance, and pay the fines instead.

Jet, why dont you stop for a minutes and actually "look" at what Obamacare is and does. Not what it was supposed to be, not what Obama said it would be, but what it actually is.

Good intentions do not necessarily translate into good policy. It just seems that you are so into what Obamacare intended to be, that you have yet to look at what it actually is or does.



I would love to see where you are getting those figures. I have some more to post myself.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar

Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

I got some more research to do to catch up with Derid.


Jet, you actually know someone who will benefit?

I honestly dont, all I know are people who a) will have their job in danger , b) people whose employer based plan will become degraded and lose their current coverage they are happy with, c) people who will have to lay people off and cut their employees hours , d) people who if this economy continues, are in danger of losing their business, and are further threatened by these huge taxes and e) people who will lose their employer based insurance , and have to seek private or govt insurance because they think their company seems likely to drop employee insurance.


Also, a research report detailing some of the CBO assumptions, changes, etc.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/09/The-Uncertainty-of-Health-Care-Projections
Posted By: Ictinike

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 05:45 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar

Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

I got some more research to do to catch up with Derid.


I understand and I'm all for helping people who truly need it, honestly I think we all as Americans do, but unfortunately I don't think distribution of wealth from the rich to the poor isn't the answer. We need to empower people and create jobs that will be marketable and competitive in the world market. To do this we need small business and innovation and unfortunately as long as I can remember taxing the rich to give to the poor, and those poor who take advantage of the system, is not the way.

I'll let you catch up with Derid on this and save our discussions to a later time smile
Posted By: Arkh

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 06:34 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar

Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

It's easy to be generous with other people's money.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Jet, you actually know someone who will benefit?

I honestly dont, all I know are people who a) will have their job in danger , b) people whose employer based plan will become degraded and lose their current coverage they are happy with, c) people who will have to lay people off and cut their employees hours , d) people who if this economy continues, are in danger of losing their business, and are further threatened by these huge taxes and e) people who will lose their employer based insurance , and have to seek private or govt insurance because they think their company seems likely to drop employee insurance.


I know lots of people who have existing conditions, and cant get insurance at all right now. I also know a friend who got cancer, then got cancelled after 1 year of treatment. That wont happen anymore either.

What you are saying sounds like the text from an insurance lobby hate commercial. I think it is all FUD (Fear, uncertainty, and doubt) from the insurance industry.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Arkh
Originally Posted By: JetStar

Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

It's easy to be generous with other people's money.


It is actually my money, I am paying and not getting anything but fell good knowing they cant screw people like they used to. More is needed for sure, and this is not perfect, but it is a start.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 08:28 PM

Yes why start with perfect when you can start at the bottom and work your way up and costing billions of extra just to start it.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
Yes why start with perfect when you can start at the bottom and work your way up and costing billions of extra just to start it.


Yeah why not just block all legislation to keep a President from being able to conduct any business. Then when your bonehead Sarah Palin is president, we can proceed to destroy what is left of the United States.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 08:56 PM

First off when did she become my bonehead Sarah Palin.

Second my point was why pass something that needs work, like hey guys I just built a time machine but it only goes to one day 6/15/2010, but dont worry I will spend 999 billion and 15 years of fighting with my wife to make it work like it should.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
First off when did she become my bonehead Sarah Palin.

Second my point was why pass something that needs work, like hey guys I just built a time machine but it only goes to one day 6/15/2010, but dont worry I will spend 999 billion and 15 years of fighting with my wife to make it work like it should.


Your estimates are totally wrong compared to the CBO report. I have to read Derid's latest, but per the last report, those inflated numbers are just propaganda.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 09:00 PM

Im curious what you think of this Hele:

Obamacare
FRONTLINE: Obama's Deal[/size]
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 09:53 PM

LOL I wasn't quoting anyone or any report. But if you dont think its gonna cost a fortune to make the Health Bill into something that most people can swallow......

As for the how the bill got passed, it was politics as usual.
You scratch my back I scratch yours.

Unfortunately once something like this is passed there is no way to get rid of it, we be stuck with it.

Term limits would make these fuckers be real politicians.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:17 PM

List of Known Fortune 500's who have change their employee health care benefits and cited the looming 2018 "Cadillac Tax" as a "key" reason.

1) Google
2) Nike
3) GE
4) Boeing
5) Amazon
6) Adidas
7) McKesson
8) Ford
9) Intel
10) Microsoft

That is just off the top of my head. Boeing's change in health care in order not to be affected by the future tax is going to cost me personally around 4k per year. If I were married and had kids it would be more like 8-10k a year. I use to have "Gold Plated" health care the most of America would be jealous of. Now courtesy of that fucking nut bag Obama, I get hosed so that someone else can get covered.

Well fuck that! Let them go to college for 6 fucking years, put themselves through school working 3/4 time, and live like a fucking popper, to get 2 degrees, so that they can get a decent job with decent benefits, only to have them taken away because of some jack ass decided to give every piece of shit who can't cover them selves a piece of my pie.

Well fuck that bullshit right in its ass. I hate the dumb ass's we elected just as much as the dumb ass's they are replacing, but god I hope they repeal this pile of shit and force them to come back with something that isn't a steaming pile of bullshit.

**Nice piece of legislation as well that made Unions exempt to the Cadillac Tax as well. Don't forget that little slice of politicing bullshit. We will tax the crap out of everyone and shield our support base...yeah real "fair" of Obama.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Tasorin
List of Known Fortune 500's who have change their employee health care benefits and cited the looming 2018 "Cadillac Tax" as a "key" reason.

1) Google
2) Nike
3) GE
4) Boeing
5) Amazon
6) Adidas
7) McKesson
8) Ford
9) Intel
10) Microsoft

That is just off the top of my head. Boeing's change in health care in order not to be affected by the future tax is going to cost me personally around 4k per year. If I were married and had kids it would be more like 8-10k a year. I use to have "Gold Plated" health care the most of America would be jealous of. Now courtesy of that fucking nut bag Obama, I get hosed so that someone else can get covered.

Well fuck that! Let them go to college for 6 fucking years, put themselves through school working 3/4 time, and live like a fucking popper, to get 2 degrees, so that they can get a decent job with decent benefits, only to have them taken away because of some jack ass decided to give every piece of shit who can't cover them selves a piece of my pie.

Well fuck that bullshit right in its ass. I hate the dumb ass's we elected just as much as the dumb ass's they are replacing, but god I hope they repeal this pile of shit and force them to come back with something that isn't a steaming pile of bullshit.


Really? Where are you getting this list? FoxNews.com?

I just read this:
Google to Add Pay to Cover a Tax for Same-Sex Benefits - NYTimes.com
Google will raise the salaries of gay and lesbian employees whose ... and more than half of Fortune 500 companies provide domestic partne
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:25 PM

You fucking nut bag, I am living it. Its been a huge topic of interest in the local newspaper here, as Five of those fortune 500's operate on a large scale in Washington.

Google gave an 8% increase to its employees to offset the cost of the change in health care. They are the only one to do that so far, as they live in a competitive market and cannot afford to have a mass of attrition to other tech firms. Additionally, if you would stop spouting nonsense, you would of seen that the offset was an aggregate average, and some employee's (those with families or domestic partners with kids would probably be impacted beyond the 8% thresh hold.)

I don't watch Faux News, and why is it every time someone disagrees with you, they must be watching Faux News? Maybe you should come off that soap box for a second and stop smoking all that liberal hype at lunch.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Arkh
Originally Posted By: JetStar

Icky, just so you know, I dont personally benefit from Obamacare, but many people I know will. It has nothing to do with me.

It's easy to be generous with other people's money.


It is actually my money, I am paying and not getting anything but fell good knowing they cant screw people like they used to. More is needed for sure, and this is not perfect, but it is a start.


Jet, you are free to spend your money however you like.

However, having armed men forcibly take MY money, MY freedom, to give to other people so YOU can feel better about yourself, is why I so despise contemporary "liberal" politics.

And what I said in my previous post was not from any damn "fear card" , as I said - these are all cases of people I know personally.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:36 PM

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11945

That is NOT liberal hype. It is the latest CBO analysis of the new healthcare plan. I just read it again. It is the latest from the CBO, so Derid, I dont see anything more current regarding this subject:

I am coming to this conclusion based on looking up the following:
Quote:
PUBLICATIONS ISSUED IN THE PAST 90 DAYS
Fiscal Policy Choices
NOVEMBER 19, 2010 pdfblog post
CBO Director Doug Elmendorf's presentation to the Society of Government Economists

Fiscal Policy Choices
NOVEMBER 19, 2010 pdfblog post
CBO Director Doug Elmendorf's presentation to the National Tax Association

Preliminary Analysis of Rivlin-Ryan Health Care Proposal
NOVEMBER 17, 2010 pdf
Letter to the Honorable Paul Ryan

Public Spending on Transportation and Water Infrastructure
NOVEMBER 2010pdfadditional infoblog post

Unemployment Insurance Benefits and Family Income of the Unemployed
NOVEMBER 17, 2010 pdfblog post
Letter to the Honorable Jim McDermott

Managing Allowance Prices in a Cap-and-Trade Program
NOVEMBER 2010pdfblog post

Monthly Budget Review
NOVEMBER 2010pdfblog post
Based on the Monthly Treasury Statement for September and the Daily Treasury Statements for October

The Effect of the March Health Legislation on Prescription Drug Prices
NOVEMBER 4, 2010pdf
Letter to the Honorable Paul Ryan
(This is regarding a new proposal, and not the current laws. It is mostly talking about raising the retirement age.)

The Economic Outlook and Options for Fiscal Policy
OCTOBER 27, 2010 pdfblog post
CBO Director Doug Elmendorf's presentation to the Forecasters Club

CBO's Projections of Federal Receipts and Expenditures in the Framework of the National Income and Product Accounts
OCTOBER 2010pdf

Economic Effects of the March Health Legislation
OCTOBER 2010pdfblog post
CBO Director Doug Elmendorf's presentation at the Schaeffer Center of the University of Southern California


Why do you guys immediately disregard the CBO reports on the matter. How can you dismiss this so easily?
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:37 PM

A little more. Fact is that there is no way to repeal this until you get a new President, and it is going to be hard even then.

I just re-upped my insurance here at work again, no increase, and no changes.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/22/10 10:46 PM

Jet I just read your link. Non Sequitur. Does not follow.

What are you trying to say?

Biggest thing I took away was this quote
"
Total spending on health care now accounts for about 15 percent of GDP, and CBO projects that it will represent more than 25 percent by 2035. Therefore, changes in the performance of this part of the economy are increasingly critical to the performance of the economy as a whole."

No need for link, that was yours.

You arent making a case or a point here Jet. You are calling facts "propoganda" unless they are "your facts" , and you facts are , thus far, ALWAYS taken out of context and present without presenting the total scope of relevant information.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 12:25 AM

Really? That was the biggest thing you got from the report?

What about:
Quote:
Save the federal government about $400 billion over next decade, some of which represents reductions in national health spending.
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 12:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Derid
Total spending on health care now accounts for about 15 percent of GDP, and CBO projects that it will represent more than 25 percent by 2035. Therefore, changes in the performance of this part of the economy are increasingly critical to the performance of the economy as a whole.


That number has to do more with aging baby boomers and NOT the passed healthcare bill. This is a condition, not a result.
Posted By: Helemoto

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 12:29 AM

I see whats going on!!!!!!

Jets fuckin with us
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: Helemoto
I see whats going on!!!!!!

Jets fuckin with us


I WOULD NEVER! I AM A TREE HUGGER, k thx.
Posted By: Tasorin

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 12:46 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
Originally Posted By: Helemoto
I see whats going on!!!!!!

Jets fuckin with us


I WOULD NEVER! I AM A TROLL, k thx.


There fixed it for you.
Posted By: Ictinike

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 03:01 AM

I want to recall a story for you that involves me personally a few years back before Ohio had ban on smoking.

In my workplace there was always a cafe that allowed smoking. Now lets not get into the facts about how it's harming me, et all but one day I was sitting there with my coworkers enjoying a smoke when some fat fucking hog of a woman, and that's literally an understatement, decided to bitch at me for smoking.

Not only was I killing myself but I was killing her. Oh not by second hand smoke but by the premiums she was forced to pay to cover costs of bogus lawsuits from smokers who sued. She literally went on and on about it until she decided to pop her .75 into the machine for, yet I'm sure, another Mr. Goodbar candy bar.

Now being one who is not going to take shit from anyone I stood up and asked her if she, a woman of such large stature, had diabetes. She promptly stated "yes, I do" which was explained to me because of her weight and sugar issues. I then asked her in clear retrospect of her bitching me out if she would like if they installed scales in front of the candy machine and if you did not meet a particular requirement they would not vend her the fucking candy. I mean, I'm paying for her ability to shove her fucking trough mouth with everything under the sun also upping my premiums to cover her medical costs to treat her diabetes.

She promptly shoved damn near the entire bar in her mouth and walked away.

It's THIS type of trash who see's the fault in everyone but herself that will bury us; nothing else.

Until this country wakes up and realizes our lazy, fat, over-indulging population of free loading individuals present a far bigger risk to our country it will continue to decline.

Some 40-50 years ago there was no "thyroid condition" or "My back hurts too much to work" issues because we simply labeled them trash but ever since we've placed these wretched examples of humans on pedestals and cowered in fear of actual ridicule that may, just possibly, lead them develop some sense of worth they may be valuable assets of society.

Sorry, long day and I'm just sick and tired of being one of "those" guys who doesn't expect a free hand out, doesn't expect things to be done for him and by all costs take care of me. If times were hard I would do everything imaginable to support my family and if that involved taking 3 jobs in the shitty possible places I would do so. I'm so sick and tired of hearing the younger generations bitch and moan about work, having to work or what they get paid. It's a personal responsibility to take care of your own and why must I feel taken advantage of because I do these things and our government wants to punish me and give to those very same lazy, fat fucking trash?

Sorry again, I'm done..
Posted By: JetStar

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 03:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Ictinike
I want to recall a story for you that involves me personally a few years back before Ohio had ban on smoking.

In my workplace there was always a cafe that allowed smoking. Now lets not get into the facts about how it's harming me, et all but one day I was sitting there with my coworkers enjoying a smoke when some fat fucking hog of a woman, and that's literally an understatement, decided to bitch at me for smoking.

Not only was I killing myself but I was killing her. Oh not by second hand smoke but by the premiums she was forced to pay to cover costs of bogus lawsuits from smokers who sued. She literally went on and on about it until she decided to pop her .75 into the machine for, yet I'm sure, another Mr. Goodbar candy bar.

Now being one who is not going to take shit from anyone I stood up and asked her if she, a woman of such large stature, had diabetes. She promptly stated "yes, I do" which was explained to me because of her weight and sugar issues. I then asked her in clear retrospect of her bitching me out if she would like if they installed scales in front of the candy machine and if you did not meet a particular requirement they would not vend her the fucking candy. I mean, I'm paying for her ability to shove her fucking trough mouth with everything under the sun also upping my premiums to cover her medical costs to treat her diabetes.

She promptly shoved damn near the entire bar in her mouth and walked away.

It's THIS type of trash who see's the fault in everyone but herself that will bury us; nothing else.

Until this country wakes up and realizes our lazy, fat, over-indulging population of free loading individuals present a far bigger risk to our country it will continue to decline.

Some 40-50 years ago there was no "thyroid condition" or "My back hurts too much to work" issues because we simply labeled them trash but ever since we've placed these wretched examples of humans on pedestals and cowered in fear of actual ridicule that may, just possibly, lead them develop some sense of worth they may be valuable assets of society.

Sorry, long day and I'm just sick and tired of being one of "those" guys who doesn't expect a free hand out, doesn't expect things to be done for him and by all costs take care of me. If times were hard I would do everything imaginable to support my family and if that involved taking 3 jobs in the shitty possible places I would do so. I'm so sick and tired of hearing the younger generations bitch and moan about work, having to work or what they get paid. It's a personal responsibility to take care of your own and why must I feel taken advantage of because I do these things and our government wants to punish me and give to those very same lazy, fat fucking trash?

Sorry again, I'm done..


Well there are alot of examples of this. For instance, I have no Children, and will never go back to school. Why should I have to pay for everyones children's education? I get your point for sure, and it's hard to draw the line between someone who really needs help, and someone who is taking advantage.

Not sure we will ever work that one out.
Posted By: Wolfgang

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 04:20 AM

To many people are looking for a handout. I WORK my ass off to get what I have. Yet, there are people that THINK they are owed something from the government. And they are to fucking stupid to understand it's people like me that are actually keeping their stupid ass's with a monthly check. All the while nearly all of them are in good enough if not better health than I am that ONLY want something for nothing.

I have a cousin thats on disability, only because he's a fucking lazy ass that's to stupid to do anything for himself. He still lives with My Aunt & Uncle at the age of 34. He will sit on his fucking ass while his dad (my uncle) climbs a ladder to trim a tree or repair siding and such. My uncle had a bad stroke 5 or 6 years ago. I can't go near him (my cousin) because I want to do nothing more than to fucking punch him in the fucking face and tell him how big of a dumbass he is.

People like him need to do humanity a favor and play tag with a grizzly bear. The other big thing that is dragging us down is political correctness. This BY FAR is the biggest and most destructive thing wrong with America today. People are so affaid to offend someone. Oh no... we couldn't profile someone looking middle-eastern thats trying to get on a plane, it's MUCH better to spend a fuck ton of money for million dollar machines. Or physically pat down a 10 year old or grandma because they want to go see their family. It's FUCKING INSANE to do this bullshit. We are spending so much money on this shit when it's not even needed.

Terrorist are laughing their towels right off their heads right now at all the money we're spending on shit that will most likely never stop a bomb getting on a plane. It only pisses off the normal everyday people traveling because they have to jump through hoops. Take a look at Israel, when has been the last time you've heard anything about their ariport security? Well you haven't for a reason. They Profile, they take the money on these million dollar scanners and put it to GOOD use with gathering Intlligence on the people that wish to do them harm. And THIS is what we are going to have to do in order to stop 10 year olds and grandma from getting frisked and given the 10th degree, all the while they let haji walk right by because they don't want to offend them.

I say send the TSA to the Mexican Border with the Scanners and Frisking, that's where it's needed the most if they are deadset on spending a shit-ton of money. There is NOTHING wrong with profiling. When it comes to protecting yourself you have to use what works. If 19 short fat guys flew planes into the world trade center, and everytime I were to fly someplace I wouldn't have any issue with them asking me a few more questions or search me. I would expect that, it just boils down to people being fucking retarded and wanting something because their skin isn't thick enough to deal with the way they look. It's really sad.
Posted By: Derid

Re: THE TRUTH about the ground zero "Mosque" - 11/23/10 05:42 AM

Originally Posted By: JetStar
A little more. Fact is that there is no way to repeal this until you get a new President, and it is going to be hard even then.

I just re-upped my insurance here at work again, no increase, and no changes.


Um Jet, read the report again. Thats just reduction from Medicare spending, not an assessment of total impact of the bill. Its a reflection of the fact that doctors are going to get paid a LOT less to see Medicare patients. Might want to also check into the unintended consequences of that as well.

Read: Medicare patients get moved to the back of the line.

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